Keeping Pets Is Reprehensible

[Turtle]

Yup! I love my turtles, in a pinch I can eat them! I rescued all my turtles off the road after they had been hurt in what would have been mortally wounded in the wild. I have no need what so ever to justify my pet keeping no more than I need to justify eating meat. Taking an animal from the wild as a pet is the same as killing it, genetically they are dead as far as the ecosystem goes and no I have no problem with that. You need to throttle back on the Nature Conservancy propaganda dude,

 

You have given no supporting links for any of your assertions, let alone any links to counter the assertions made in my links and don't even tell me what to throttle dude. :phones: I won't be provoked with impunity.

[Moontanman]

Nether have you turtle my friend, nether have you. your lake link had nothing in it about snails, your nature conservancy link is about as reputable as PETA and is all about plants and your goldfish link is evidence of nothing but that fact that it's an exotic. Try this link

 

Non-Native Fish May Be A Benefit Not A Burden

[Turtle]

The text at this source is not copyable to notepad, but it discounts Moontan's continued unsupported claims & assertions of invasive pet species not doing environmental damage. :phones:

 

Invasive species in the Pacific ... - Google Book Search

[Moontanman]

I never said release of pets never does any damage i said they seldom do, second I was talking about fishes, thirdly your link only talks about possible problems it doesn't document any real damage done. The link i provided does how ever say that most exotic releases do not cause problems and can actually be a good thing. I asked to a real assessment of damage not potential damage. The zebra mussel in the great lakes has caused considerable damage. The damage is well documented, that is what i was talking about as proof, so far all you have done is parrot what the people who shout and run in circles say might happen, not what has happened. just because an exotic has become established doesn't make it bad and I'll say it again, most established exotics are caused by the government releasing exotic fishes not by hobbyists.

[pamela]

originally posted by moontanman

The horrible dirty conditions captive turtles were condemned to were and are the real source of the disease, salmonella is not unique to turtles but it does thrive in the dirty filthy conditions most turtles were kept in.

not sure what you mean by unique here, but salmonella is naturally found in turtles

from the CDC

Salmonella occurs naturally in turtles and does not usually make the animals sick. You cannot tell by looking at a turtle whether it is carrying Salmonella. Salmonella bacteria are easily passed from turtles to people

CDC Features - Turtles and Salmonella

[Turtle]

Additional support of my position: >> :rolleyes:

 

Questions and Answers about Wild and Exotic Animals as Pets | The Humane Society of the United States

2. When Is Captivity Justified?

 

Wild animals should only be kept in captivity by professional zoological facilities. The only individuals who should be allowed to have wild animals are licensed wildlife rehabilitators and certain breeders. In both cases, they should demonstrate a thorough knowledge of their field and an ability to care for the animal humanely.

 

3. Why Are Public Health and Safety Concerns?

 

Every year, privately owned wild animals seriously injure or kill humans. Pet snakes have suffocated babies; raccoons have killed children; and lions have mauled their owners. Individuals legitimately concerned about wild animals being kept in their neighborhoods regularly seek assistance in dealing with this problem.

 

Animals in traveling acts also present considerable danger to the public. One particularly notorious act involved a wrestling bear that, though muzzled and declawed, managed to bite off fingers and break bones.

 

Furthermore, wild and exotic animals carry a number of diseases that are transmissible to humans, including rabies, tuberculosis, hepatitis, tularemia, leptospirosis, salmonella, and ringworm, and other parasites. ...

[Moontanman]

not sure what you mean by unique here, but salmonella is naturally found in turtles

 

Salmonella is naturally found in reptiles, amphibians, and birds and some mammals. It is associated with them in the same way E. coli is found in all mammals, even humans. If they are kept under clean conditions and handled in a manner you would handle any other small animal turtles are no more dangerous than a frog or a snake. When turtles are kept in a soup of their own feces and rotten food the salmonella bacteria multiply to millions of times their natural populations and even a small drop can supply enough organisms to overwhelm the immune system, especially those of small children and some one with a compromised immune system. This would be true if it was a hamster the child was putting in it's mouth or a cow turd. I am not trying to say turtles are harmless but if kept under reasonable conditions they are no more harmful than birds, lizards or any other small pet. Even dogs can transfer disease if they are kept under bad conditions you put your hands in your mouth after handling them. The CDC concentrates their warning on turtles because most people seem to think that turtles are a toy instead of a living animal and tend to give them to young children who do not know better than to put them in their mouths. The CDC says to wash your hands i would say if you can't keep them under clean conditions don't keep them at all. I have kept turtles since I was a little boy, i was never hurt by them but I did get salmonella once from peanut butter, it's a serious thing, I have always washed my hands after handing a turtle or any other animal even my fishes, but now I am fanatical about it, salmonella makes a believer out of you, even a small chance of shitting out your intestines shouldn't be taken lightly :cup: The CDC says turtles should not be kept by small children or people with bad immune systems, i agree, they say you should wash your hands after handling turtles, i agree, washing your hands after handing a small animal seems like a no brainier to me. But turtles are not the only or even main source of salmonella, chicken is probably the most salmonella ridden creature you can bring into your home, even if it's dead and wrapped in plastic from the meat counter.

[Moontanman]

Additional support of my position: >> :cup:

 

Questions and Answers about Wild and Exotic Animals as Pets | The Humane Society of the United States

 

Turtle you are starting to give off a high pitched whine, you keep quoting things that have no bearing on what i am talking about, you keep upping the anti instead of confronting the real issue. i am not talking about keeping lions or tigers or chimps or even raccoons. i am talking about fish mostly or other small aquatic animals. some turtles fall into this category others do not. I do not have any particular expertise in the problem with large exotic animals and will not pretend to have any in this discussion. I have seen where a group of scientists seem determined to transplant lions, elephants and other large animals from Africa into the US and let them roam free and form reproducing populations, i am not in agreement with these people. Mostly because i am have little or no direct knowledge about the problems but have to rely on my friends in the science community for the info on this, all of my friends oppose this quite strongly. I do how ever have considerable personal expertise on the breeding and keeping of fish and some other small aquatic animals. BTW not all turtles are aquatic or small :hihi:

 

I am all about protecting wild populations either by captive breeding or by closely monitored harvesting of wild animals. If wild animals cannot be harvested as pets then it should go with out saying they should not be harvested for food either, I disagree with this premise completely. I can amass huge numbers of allies in this as can you, only the future will tell who has enough support to enforce their will on the others.

 

The main problem with the fishes is introduction outside their natural habitat, (not physical harm to any individuals) this usually doesn't result in a problem, my personal and semi professional take on this is that no animal should ever be released into the wild after being held in captivity. when keeping an animal in captivity the animal is ecologically dead, no matter how long you keep it alive from the stand point of the environment the animal is dead. The real potential problem is with introduced disease. So far there has been no confirmed reports of such a disease being introduced from small aquatic animals. All such diseases have come from recreational fishermen mixing bait fish from one drainage system to another or from the release of food fish by the state or the captive breeding of fishes from state owned fish hatcheries for stocking of fishes for recreational fishermen. They reproduce many times the number of fishes the pet trade does, often in inbreed mono culture that just begs for problems and then release said fish into the environment. this practice has caused lots of problems in the past but currently lots of effort is being put into keeping this from happening.

 

Now i cannot argue with about large exotic animals you win that one by default but i do know about fishes, if you want to go there be my guest but don't expect me to roll over for you on that.

[Turtle]

Again, Mootan has no sources. It's a violation of the rules here, not how science advances, and a breach I won't overlook.

 

What rings in my ears more than these emotional outbursts from pet owners is the comments not made by the rest of you Dear Readers. In any event, I will continue to post articles on the environmental damage caused by pets as I find them. This link is particularly good and was glossed over a few posts back, so I'm reposting it. I regret it is in a format that does not allow copying/pasting text, but it is clear on the environmental damage from pet turtles released here in the Northwest. :cup: :hihi: >> Invasive species in the Pacific ... - Google Book Search

[Moontanman]

Again, Mootan has no sources. It's a violation of the rules here, not how science advances, and a breach I won't overlook.

 

Ooohhh, I'm shaking in my boots, what are going to do list more inane links with no informational content? I did give sources, you evidently choose not to read anything that disagrees with your phobia.

 

 

What rings in my ears more than these emotional outbursts from pet owners is the comments not made by the rest of you Dear Readers. In any event, I will continue to post articles on the environmental damage caused by pets as I find them.

 

I look forward to reading these links, when do you feel like you might actually post one?

 

This link is particularly good and was glossed over a few posts back, so I'm reposting it. I regret it is in a format that does not allow copying/pasting text, but it is clear on the environmental damage from pet turtles released here in the Northwest. :hihi: >> Invasive species in the Pacific ... - Google Book Search

 

No one has glossed over your sources turtle, the source you gave has no information describing environmental damage by pets what so ever or by invasive exotic turtles. How about reading your own link and paying attention to what it says. :cup:

[Turtle]

This hasn't been my experience at all and doesn't resemble the attitude or expression that I, or anyone else I know for that matter, displays with the way they keep their pets. My dogs are members of my family and are my friends. I love them, and I sense that they love me too.

 

I don't think my experience is atypical.

 

I'm not surprised you think this as you own pets, but nonetheless and with all due respect, I don't think you really know the extent of bad pet keeping. We addressed much earlier in this thread the problem with putting up such subjective arguments as yours against objective facts, and it is a non sequitar tactic as I see it. No matter how much love, snuggles, yada yada yada, it does not negate the facts of the number of bad pet owners and the consequence of it to the environment and society.

 

I'll wager that in your community, cats require licenses and are not allowed to run free, and further I wager that a low percentage is licensed and people see nothing wrong with letting cats run free, and I further stick my turtly neck out and suggest that even when you see illegal bad pet ownership practices that you don't report it. You can check with your local authoriites for information on the actual numbers of such circumstances as I describe.

 

This is no situation to go all Ostrich. :naughty:

[Turtle]

We discussed the cat damage early on, but it's worth repeating and this is a newish article and has at least used a rational means of accounting for birds killed by cats in the US. :naughty:

 

Thursday, March 20, 2008

Cats Kill Over 1 Billion Birds Each Year in U.S.

Hopefully my last cat and bird post for awhile!

 

Some folks don't seem willing to accept the magnitude of the cat predation problem. While it is a bit tricky to come up with solid numbers of birds and other animals killed, we can make estimates based on a growing number of studies of cat predation.

 

The trick is to come up with a calculation based on:

 

a) The numbers of cats roaming the landscape

The number of birds killed by the average cat

 

There is no agreement about either of these two figures, so the trick is to try and come up with a fairly defensible number.

...

You can play this game all day, based on numbers from various studies. The cat advocates will try to cast doubt on these predation rates, but there are arguments to be made that real average predation rates may be higher (these are mostly studies of owned cats which may hunt less, owners may not be seeing all birds killed by their cats and consumed or left elsewhere, etc.). ...

[Moontanman]

I agree, eeewwweee, that was hard to say, Cat's should never be allowed to roam (dogs either) but cats are super predators in the small animal world. They kill many times as much as they have to to live. Most have no need to kill to live at all but they persist in killing anything small enough to over power. Sadly this doesn't usually include the very thing we would like them to control, RATs, Few cats will tackle a Rat but they will kill most other small animals. In my back Yard there are lots of lizards, small snakes, ground moles and squirrels and other small animals. My dogs would love to catch some of them but seldom do. My dogs do however keep cats out of the yard. The from yard where my dogs never go are almost empty of small lizards and other small creatures due to the neighborhood cats prowling the area and killing birds and anything else they can catch and over power. I had to move my bird feeders because they became "Cat" feeders. Cats are a menace and not truly domesticated. when i am in the woods with a gun and i see a cat i shoot it immediately, all cats here must be on a leash so free roaming cats (and dogs) are assumed to be feral and free targets! Idiot people actually go out of their way to feed these wild cats! Unbelievable!

[Turtle]

I agree [ecological cat damage is bad], eeewwweee, that was hard to say,

 

I appreciate the effort it took and thank you for it. :) None of us likes to hear or think that something we do is a harm.

 

Cat's should never be allowed to roam (dogs either) but cats are super predators in the small animal world. They kill many times as much as they have to to live. Most have no need to kill to live at all but they persist in killing anything small enough to over power. Sadly this doesn't usually include the very thing we would like them to control, RATs, Few cats will tackle a Rat but they will kill most other small animals. In my back Yard there are lots of lizards, small snakes, ground moles and squirrels and other small animals. My dogs would love to catch some of them but seldom do. My dogs do however keep cats out of the yard. The from yard where my dogs never go are almost empty of small lizards and other small creatures due to the neighborhood cats prowling the area and killing birds and anything else they can catch and over power. I had to move my bird feeders because they became "Cat" feeders. Cats are a menace and not truly domesticated. when i am in the woods with a gun and i see a cat i shoot it immediately, all cats here must be on a leash so free roaming cats (and dogs) are assumed to be feral and free targets! Idiot people actually go out of their way to feed these wild cats! Unbelievable!

 

Again I am a bit dismayed by your quick encouragement to kill animals. :eek: In your post, you also confirm in yourself what I suggested was true for Reason a couple posts back, i.e. you do not report this illegal animal activity. Ostrich I think I said, which is to say sticking your head in the sand. How can the local animal control people know the scope of the problem without your input and that of the community?

 

When you see the illegal activity, phone it in. I have spent an hour this morning perusing my own local Animal Control & Humane Society web pages looking for the information on the County program for trapping cats and other loose animals, but it's not there that I can find. I may have to call because I know the County rents traps for cats as well as gives instruction on the whens, hows, & whys of humane trapping. At any rate, your local folks can & will instruct you on the proper & legal & humane way to actively participate in solving the problem. Check their websites as there is a wealth of information. :coffee_n_pc:

 

My local Animal Control Main Page: Animal Protection and Control - Community Development - Clark County Washington

 

My Local Humane Society Main Page: Welcome to The Humane Society for Southwest Washington

[CraigD]

when i am in the woods with a gun and i see a cat i shoot it immediately, all cats here must be on a leash so free roaming cats (and dogs) are assumed to be feral and free targets!

Though I’m not a lawyer, from a brief conversation I just had with another non-lawyer who is a veterinary, I think shooting any cat or dog they encounter roaming free is legally unwise.

 

In many jurisdictions, such as mine (Maryland, USA), shooting even an obviously feral cat or dog may be legally construed as misdemeanor cruelty to animals, with a maximum penalty of 90 days imprisonment and $1000. The “intent of the law” section of the relevant statutes explicitly include stray or feral animals (source Maryland Consolidated Cruelty Statutes). The determination of what is and is not “cruel” is not detailed in the statutes, but according to my vet friend, almost any means of killing an animal not specifically exempt from the statues, such as livestock and lab animals, and wild animals, by a means other than euthanasia by a vet, can be legally deemed “cruel”.

 

Also, if the cat or dog you shoot is not feral, it’s property. If you kill it, you can be sued in civil court not only for the replacement value of the animal, but for emotional distress caused. My vet friend had never heard of, but doesn’t believe that “protecting non-owned wildlife”, such as birds and lizards, would be an effective defense argument in such a lawsuit, and knew of several cases where “pissing/crapping on my house/lawn/garden” failed as a defense.

 

In practical terms, I think that as long as you don’t take the carcass any part of it as a trophy, or tell anyone about it, it’s unlikely that you’d ever be found out, let alone be charged with a crime or have a successful civil suit brought against you. However, if you were found out, I believe that in most US jurisdictions, you could find yourself in legal trouble.

 

A non-legal reason to avoid killing cats or dogs is that many people feel very protective of them, both those they own, and strays and feral ones. Some of these people, despite their objections to harming non-human animals, are violent, and, if they find you out, will try to hurt or (much more rarely) kill you in retaliation. Many more will speak ill of you to your neighbors, customers, or business partners.

 

In short, I think killing cats and dogs, other than using an approved euthanasia method, is just bad mojo. :coffee_n_pc:

[Moontanman]

Oh course since I said "when I am in the woods with a gun" and Not "when I'm walking around the neighborhood" I don't think the law applies even though ours is different than yours. when I am out in the woods with a gun and shoot something there is seldom a witness! Hunting for me is a lonely thing, In my neighborhood I routinely contact animal control and they bring me a trap I set for feral cats and they pick up feral dogs. I don't shoot neighborhood dogs unless they threaten me in my own yard and give me no real choice. Dead is dead, trying to capture a feral cat in the woods is a fools game, only if you see the cat regularly near where you live is trapping them a real option.

[Thunderbird]

In short, I think killing cats and dogs, other than using an approved euthanasia method, is just bad mojo. :(

I would seldom if ever consider killing a stray dog , but cats should be kept indoors. I’m sorry but when I see a cat with a rare song bird in its mouth.. :evil:. That SOB is on my hit list!! :hihi: