Keeping Pets Is Reprehensible

[vanamoinen1]

i have no truck with cats (just not a cat person), but look to the dog: he's been our companion for 40,000 years and to a large extent, our partnership has elaborated and evolved this animal to a greater extent than any other animal. In times past (and present in certain milieus) dogs have been working partners--guarding/herding our livestock and crops, assisting in guarding our homes, assisting us in hunting and so on. Even companion breeds serve a partnership function--they help to alleviate loneliness and provide an outlet for affection. There IS value in this partnership.

 

So no, I don't find pet keeping in and of itself reprehensible. I'd not value my dog more than I'd value a human being, but my dog is part of my household and holds a relatively higher position there than my inanimate objects. What is reprehensible are the petowners who get a pet (any kind) and then neglect the animal's physical as well as psychological needs. They just shouldn't have bothered. Thankfully, some zoos have started to realize that an animal needs more than just food and water.

[Turtle]

...So no, I don't find pet keeping in and of itself reprehensible. I'd not value my dog more than I'd value a human being, but my dog is part of my household and holds a relatively higher position there than my inanimate objects. What is reprehensible are the petowners who get a pet (any kind) and then neglect the animal's physical as well as psychological needs. They just shouldn't have bothered. Thankfully, some zoos have started to realize that an animal needs more than just food and water.

 

Welcome aboard and thanks for a well writ post...erhm...riposte. :lol: Allowing the possibility for the time being that there is such a thing as a good pet owner, I will now argue and bring evidence that such as they, constitute a very small minority. I have yet to go looking for data, but I chanced on a TV report last week from across the river in Portland Oregon (dog friendliest citty in America :hihi:) that only 10% of dogs and 3% of cats have licenses. I'm gonna bet they're not the exception nationwide. :)

 

My own problems have slowed, though I did report the dogs barking for 4 hours straight last week while the owners left or slept. I recorded at least one stray cat on my infrared night surveillance and I see a new Red-tailed hawk hanging around so the pigeon keepers nearby are gonna prolly try & kill it like the last one(s) I suspect them of taking out (see earlier posts in this thread). Good grief I'm too old for this ****. ;) :shrug: Thanks all for the comments & that's another wrap from this sap. :eek_big:

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

OPB:Turtle- Red-tailed hawk hanging around so the pigeon keepers nearby are gonna prolly try & kill it like the last one(s) I suspect them of taking out (see earlier posts in this thread

Furkin busterds!!!!! G*d d@m @$$oles!:shrug:

 

Red-tailed Hawk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Sorry just hate to hear bout idiots killing more a much more useful species in favor of flying rats:rant:

 

BTW.....

Today, Red-tails and other hawks are universally protected by state, provincial, and federal bird protection laws.

....I'll have to look around a bit more but the above quoted sounds accurate to recollection.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Portland Man Arrested for Shooting Red-tailed Hawk — Audubon Society of Portland

 

Help Audubon Stop the Illegal Killing of Birds — Audubon Society of Portland

 

 

An 18-month long undercover investigation by the US Fish and Wildlife Service revealed that members of “Roller Pigeon Clubs” (Clubs which raise pigeons for sport) were deliberately killing protected birds of prey using methods that included shooting, trapping, poisoning, clubbing, baiting birds into glass panels and baiting birds with pigeons rigged with fishing hooks. Affidavits reveal that one of the men convicted took pleasure in spraying a mixture of bleach and ammonia directly into the eyes and mouths of birds he had trapped. Another individual bragged to an undercover agent about beating hawks to death describing it as a “great thing….you’ll see, you get a lot of frustration out.” These crimes were particularly personal for Portland Audubon Society---on the Roller Pigeon Club Website, a club member bragged about the killing of peregrine falcons that were raised and released from our facility. He stated that he “laughed and laughed” when he thought of all the work that went into releasing these birds and described their deaths as “pure bliss.” (from the second link)

:shrug: Bet if the powers that be skipped the fines and returned a punishment truly equal to the crime:gun4: they wouldn't be so pleased with themselves or as eager to do such things to begin with:cussing:

 

 

That'll do....If'n y'all want more google it.

[Turtle]

Portland Man Arrested for Shooting Red-tailed Hawk — Audubon Society of Portland

 

Help Audubon Stop the Illegal Killing of Birds — Audubon Society of Portland

 

That'll do....If'n y'all want more google it.

 

Seems I got some spreadin' around, but let it be known throughout the land, Turtle finds your post worthy of the highest approving repute.

 

From your first link: Portland Man Arrested for Shooting Red-tailed Hawk — Audubon Society of Portland

...Although the Wildlife Care Center treats between 50 and 150 illegally shot birds each year, these incidents have resulted in only a handful of prosecutions over the past decade. Rarely have the authorities been able to find witnesses able to identify a suspect. Even when suspects have been identified, prosecutions have been rare as the local legal system has viewed wildlife related crimes as a low priority. In the near future things only look to get worse in this arena as budget cuts have forced district attorney offices to reduce their case loads. Animal related crimes are regularly cited in recent newspaper articles as one of the major areas of prosecution that will be reduced or eliminated should additional budget cuts go into effect. ...

 

I earlier linked in this thread to an FBI investigation of an internet network of pet pigeon keeping raptor-killers sharing methods and bragging on numbers of kills. As I have never heard shots here, I suspect they baited the bird down & either poisoned or netted it?? It's been a year or maybe 2. I just saw their pigeons out for a fly an hour ago; looks like racers not rollers. Will get vids if possible. :shrug:

[Turtle]

Help Audubon Stop the Illegal Killing of Birds — Audubon Society of Portland

 

:) Bet if the powers that be skipped the fines and returned a punishment truly equal to the crime:gun4: they wouldn't be so pleased with themselves or as eager to do such things to begin with:cussing:

 

 

That'll do....If'n y'all want more google it.

 

I'm going back through threads to find what I posted & when on my own neighbor pigeon owners and found my first sighting of the hawks as well as Racoon's post on just your article quoted above. Racoon's post from Birding Thread

 

My post on the Red-tails is #336 in that thread:

06-13-2007 #336

 

i watched a crow & a blackbird gang up together to attack a red-tailed hawk yesterday. no more than a couple hundred feet high and the hawk rather casually reeling around a circle as the crow & blackbird took turns diving & attacking. the crow dove from above and targeted the head, while the blackbird (brewers blackbird) would dive down below the hawk and then pull up steep under it and attack the trailing edges of its wings.

 

i watched several minutes before deciding to run in for my camera to get some video, but they flew off before i returned.

 

I'm still going to press the issue that bad pet owners predominate the practice of pet-keeping, but I want to reiterate what devastating environmental damge even a few can and do cause. :evil:

 

Well, I have nothing else to add short of scathing hyperbole :rant:, so off I go. :D :)

[Turtle]

No luck yet on US national pet licensing stats, but one interesting story on licesning dogs in Mumbai. :P More than 22,000 pet dogs in city not licensed, says BMC census - Right to Information

 

Then there is this example of why keeping pets is reprehensible: :phones:

 

The Terrible Turtle Trade

The Terrible Turtle Trade

Around the world' date=' turtles are being sold as pets and spreading disease.

They are even dissected live for their meat.

By Ted Williams

 

© National Audubon Society Mar/Apr 1999.

...Venting excuses and apologies for the pet-turtle trade is Marshall Meyers, executive vice-president of a trade group called the Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council. But when I asked him if it was hypocritical of the United States to declare mouth-size turtles too dangerous for anyone but foreigners, he gave me an honest answer: “Since when has the U.S. government not been hypocritical?”

 

The pet-turtle business is infecting more than just people. “We are, in fact, exporting our turtle-disease problems around the world, and the potential for problems of epidemic proportions to wild stocks is high,” Behler warns. When the pets get sick or their owners tire of them, they are tossed or flushed into habitat occupied by native turtles. Red-eared sliders, for example, native to the Mississippi drainage from Illinois south, are now established in the wild all over the world. In Washington they are threatening the vanishing Pacific pond turtle. ...[/quote']

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Truly awfull:(

 

Basically, they were disposable pets.

<-people with this philosophy or the belief that animals are property should not even so much as think of getting an animal of any sort for a pet ...better they get a pet rock.

[Moontanman]

The whole turtle thing is not as accurate as this article would have you believe. Turtles are no more dangerous than any other small animal pet and the chicken you bought at the grocery store yesterday is far more likely to give you salmonella than a turtle. the main problem with turtles is they were given to children who were too young to have pets. for some reason turtles were seen as somehow less than a small mammal like a hamster or guinea pig and virtually no one understood how they should be kept. this allowed hatching turtles to be sold as pets under conditions that almost no other animal could tolerate and and turtles nearly always died after a few weeks. For some reason a dead reptile didn't seem to have the impact of a dead mammal and so turtles become disposable pets. I have kept turtles most of my life and I have one turtle I've had for 35 years. Sadly very few turtle owners ever really tried to take care of their pets in a manner consistent with the animals needs and so they died. The horrible dirty conditions captive turtles were condemned to were and are the real source of the disease, salmonella is not unique to turtles but it does thrive in the dirty filthy conditions most turtles were kept in. Another sad fact is most if not all the turtles being sent out of the country are not for the pet trade but are for the food trade. in many places around the world turtles are so much in demand as food the native turtles are all but extinct so turtles from other places are brought in to fill the gaps. Under reasonable conditions turtles grow fast and attain market size in a reasonable time period. huge numbers of adult turtles have been caught from the wild and sent over seas for the food markets. So many that wild turtles are in decline in many areas, I've seen a huge decline in my area as well. While I have no problem with eating turtles, they are quite good, robbing the wild of turtles until they become extinct is inexcusable. Breeding turtles as food is no worse than breeding any other animal for food but the trade in baby turtles is not dangerous and if baby turtles are kept under the correct conditions they are no more dangerous than any other creature, they do need far more room and care than almost all other small animals but this is never acknowledged by owners who expect a turtle to be as easy to keep as a rock.

[Turtle]

The whole turtle thing is not as accurate as this article would have you believe. ...

Sadly very few turtle owners ever really tried to take care of their pets in a manner consistent with the animals needs and so they died. ...

...the trade in baby turtles is not dangerous and if baby turtles are kept under the correct conditions they are no more dangerous than any other creature, they do need far more room and care than almost all other small animals but this is never acknowledged by owners who expect a turtle to be as easy to keep as a rock.

 

Poppycock. :) The article is thorough and specific as to the damage. To whit, this bit that covers the circumstances much like yours.

The Terrible Turtle Trade

...Steve Garber, now a professor at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, in Prescott, Arizona, spent 20 years studying a wood-turtle population on 2,471 acres controlled by the South Central Connecticut Regional Water Authority. All was fine with his 133 marked subjects until 1983, when the watershed was opened to public recreation. Immediately the turtles began to disappear. Garber was baffled. He checked disease, road mortality, predation. Finally, he discovered hikers were taking the turtles home one at a time. In 1991 only 14 remained. In 1992 they were gone.

 

And again, you even admit that most keepers are irresponsible and this is the circumstance for all types of pets as far as I can see. We have a local watershed infested with invasive species of snail, all because at least 1 pet owner dumped their aquarium in the lake. One mistake, crime, whatever you call it, and an entire ecosystem is screwed. No, the whole idea that we should keep pets at all is flawed in this day & age. Despite all the appeals to our history & tradition, this ain't those days anymore. Nothing but destruction everywhere you look. Utter reprehensible madness provoked by selfishness & vanity. :hihi: :)

[REASON]

No, the whole idea that we should keep pets at all is flawed in this day & age. Despite all the appeals to our history & tradition, this ain't those days anymore. Nothing but destruction everywhere you look. Utter reprehensible madness provoked by selfishness & vanity. :) :)

 

This hasn't been my experience at all and doesn't resemble the attitude or expression that I, or anyone else I know for that matter, displays with the way they keep their pets. My dogs are members of my family and are my friends. I love them, and I sense that they love me too.

 

I don't think my experience is atypical.

[Moontanman]

Your article is inflammatory, an extreme exaggeration of reality. yes in some limited areas turtles have been over harvested by idiots who think a turtle would be a cool pet but in most cases without the draw of Asian markets the North American Turtle population would be safe. the law that stopped the breeding and selling of baby turtles can be blamed just as vigorously for the collection of wild turtles. Captive bred turtles would have easily flooded the market with cheap young turtles and collection of wild turtles would be a small problem.

The solution to the problem would have been a realistic approach to the keeping of turtles and made it illegal to sell the despicable equipment and food sold as turtle bowls and food. a turtle can be a nice pet, they are alert and respond to their owners in an odd quirky way that appeals to many people. many times I've had turtles walk up to me and bump me to get my attention while I was working my greenhouse where my turtles lived. If the science behind keeping turtles was half as advanced as aquariums turtles would be good long lived pets for older children and adults.

 

I do not see the connection between small turtles and invasive species and I doubt very seriously a snail has seriously impacted the ecosystem as you claim. In fact most releases of exotic animals, especially aquatic animals is almost never from individual with pets. Only in very limited areas does have these releases become successful much less a problem. In fact nearly all exotic releases are due to official government releases of animals far out side their habitats as flat head catfish out side the Mississippi river system, trout from other ecosystems, and many other fishes even those from other continents are almost always done to "enhance" fishing.

 

The only places the aquarium pet trade has been the source of releases is Florida and Texas, most other places are far too cold for tropical animals to live long term. This problem and the pet trade it's self has been a large part of my life and debunking people who like your article claim the pet trade responsible for the exotic releases has been my stock in trade for more than 30 years. I would be the first person to say that releasing exotics is wrong and I have helped push for laws to make it a crime but the main threat is from disease organisms.

 

Anyone who thinks tropical fish will take residence almost anywhere in the 48 states is really not looking at the reality of the situation. almost all successful exotic populations outside Florida and Texas are official state fisheries releases and not some lone aquarium owner who has dumped a ten gallon tank full of tropical fishes. Even the two warmer states many if not all releases have come from sloppy aquaculture practices not home aquarium release. In Florida the state has been at the forefront of exotic releases with the peacock bass being an important one. It took the release of millions of peacock bass to establish them in the everglades (I guess the native large mouth bass weren't good enough)

 

I have to say that the idea that a few fish can be released into a functioning ecosystem and take over is both ecologically and genetically unlikely. to establish even a small fish would take hundreds if not thousands of individual fishes released at the same time into ideal circumstances, something that almost never happens.

 

If you don't like pets that's your business but your article was an exaggeration by people with an agenda. The pet trade is an easy target, very little real scientific info is available and almost anything can be claimed by environmentalists and harping on the pet trade is an easy way to stir up people with out needing real proof. Oh yeah, Hawaii is very vulnerable to the release of tropical fishes as well.

 

Now i will agree that the original Myth that turtles are easy to keep in small bowls and will eat dry food is more than just BS it's evil and should be debunked every time it comes up but to demonize turtles as pets because of people who had no idea of what it took to keep turtles is just not right. Even the turtle trade was more of a tourist type trade than it was a a real pet trade problem. Most of the pet turtles were sold in much the same way baby alligators were sold as pets with virtually no real husbandry info. From road side stands to tourists, that is where the myth if their ease of husbandry came from. Even so it wasn't the trade in alligators that caused their decline it was hunting adults for their hides and meat that killed them off in such huge numbers.

[Turtle]

Your article is inflammatory, an extreme exaggeration of reality.

 

So you say; but you provide no references of your own. At this point you will say anything to justify your keeping that turtle.

 

I do not see the connection between small turtles and invasive species and I doubt very seriously a snail has seriously impacted the ecosystem as you claim.

 

I don't see you offering any references, only opinion. You have as much as called me a liar concerning the snails in the Round Lake/Lacamas drainage. Shame on you. :)

 

In fact most releases of exotic animals, especially aquatic animals is almost never from individual with pets.Only in very limited areas does have these releases become successful much less a problem. In fact nearly all exotic releases are due to official government releases of animals far out side their habitats as flat head catfish out side the Mississippi river system, trout from other ecosystems, and many other fishes even those from other continents are almost always done to "enhance" fishing.

 

More unsubstantiated twaddle. Anything to deny pet-keeping is harmning the environment. :) Your the guy, as I recall, that I said I wouldn't take Sasquatch hunting 'cause your answer is to kill it. Good grief. :doh:

 

...I have to say that the idea that a few fish can be released into a functioning ecosystem and take over is both ecologically and genetically unlikely. to establish even a small fish would take hundreds if not thousands of individual fishes released at the same time into ideal circumstances, something that almost never happens.

 

Bomboozling babble without substantiation. Where do you get this stuff!!??? Do you actually have a link to any of your claims?

 

Oregon has taken a step in the right direction, although the list of species is far too short in my view.

Oregon Senate Votes to Ban Dangerous Wild Animals as Pets

Salem, OR — Born Free USA, The Humane Society of the United States and Oregon Humane Society applaud the Oregon state Senate for passing S.B. 391 by a vote of 28 to 2 to prohibit private possession of wild animals in the state, including alligators, monkeys, lions, tigers, and bears. Both chief sponsors, Sens. Mark Hass, D-14, and Brian Boquist, R-23, carried the bill on the Senate floor today.

 

“The owners of these animals are playing roulette with people’s lives,” says Nicole G. Paquette, senior vice president and general counsel for Born Free USA. “For the safety of people and animals in Oregon, we urge the House to also pass S.B. 391 and prohibit dangerous wild and exotic animals from being kept inappropriately in private hands.”

 

Most states now prohibit the private possession of certain exotic animals as pets. Across the United States, incidents involving exotic animals, such as the recent mauling of a Connecticut woman by a chimpanzee, reinforce the need for such legislation. ...

 

Just this last week, a service monkey bit a little girl in the face at a park as it sat on its owner's lap and leashed. I can't believe they aren't charging this guy, let alone that keeping a monkey is considered OK.

 

No charges for man in monkey attack case | KATU.com - Portland, Oregon | News

SALEM, Ore. - A man and his pet monkey that had been sought in connection with an attack on a young girl have been located.

 

The incident happened over the weekend at Salem's Riverfront Park.

 

The girl, 6-year-old Serena Taylor, was with her aunt when they walked up to a man and his monkey on a park bench as part of a growing crowd of curious people. The girl's family said the child asked to pet the monkey but before she could, it lunged at her, grabbed her by the hair with its hands and bit her just below the eye. ...

 

One bad owner after another is what it is across the board. Good grief.:hihi:

[Turtle]

On the matter of invasive snails in my area: I heard of this in Round Lake (an extension of Lacamas Lake, downstream of Lacamas Creek and my Lechtenberg Park environmental study) by way of a parent and student I know who regularly go to Round Lake on field trips with a Washington State biologist to do water studies. I have contacted my friends and asked for the biologist's name and the species of snail if possible. I find nothing online, so I'll report back when I hear something.

 

On the matter of released pets doing no harm and not surviving when released in the wild:

 

Main page: >> Invasive Species: Information, Images, Videos, Distribution Maps

Example page: >>goldfish: Carassius auratus (Cypriniformes: Cyprinidae)

 

Goldfish

Invasive Listing Sources:

 

Nonnative Invasive Species in Southern Forest and Grassland Ecosystems

Invasive Species of Concern in Georgia

[Moontanman]

On the matter of invasive snails in my area: I heard of this in Round Lake (an extension of Lacamas Lake, downstream of Lacamas Creek and my Lechtenberg Park environmental study) by way of a parent and student I know who regularly go to Round Lake on field trips with a Washington State biologist to do water studies. I have contacted my friends and asked for the biologist's name and the species of snail if possible. I find nothing online, so I'll report back when I hear something.

 

On the matter of released pets doing no harm and not surviving when released in the wild:

 

Main page: >> Invasive Species: Information, Images, Videos, Distribution Maps

Example page: >>goldfish: Carassius auratus (Cypriniformes: Cyprinidae)

 

Turtle turtle turtle, i thought you forgave me for wanting to kill big foot, now you want to use that to demean me? :phones: gold fish is the best you got? No where are gold fish an ecological threat neither is your snail. now try again to show where an aquarium release has harmed the environment. BTW anyplace where gold fish are established is usually from a fish farm that was flooded not from aquarium release. A flooded fish farm can release millions of fish all at once, a far cry from releasing a couple of gold fish in a creek. Gold fish almost never survive in the wild, they are far to easy to see and cannot hide or run from predators. Neither are they tropical. give the idea of ecological problem from hobbyist introduction another try, I'll wait. BTW have you tried to address your dog problem in real life instead of in cyberspace yet? Buy a squirt gun, fill it with household ammonia cleaner, squirt the bastards in the face with it when they confront you, they will leave you alone. The whole idea of something so much a part of the human condition being reprehensible is so lame dude. You cherry pick your data to support your personal vendetta against a couple of dogs that harass you and ignore the fact that keeping pets is highly unlikely to harm anyone or anything. For every pet that causes a problem there must be tens of thousands that do not. maybe the next thread will be making love in reprehensible or sunbathing or nudity or breathing? I'm sure there is some evidence to support almost any position if you look for it hard enough. I'll make a deal with you, for every fish release you can show from a hobbyist that causes a problem I'll show three that were released by the state or some other source.

[Turtle]

Turtle turtle turtle, i thought you forgave me for wanting to kill big foot, now you want to use that to demean me? :phones:

Just putting your ecological thinking into context mate.

 

gold fish is the best you got? No where are gold fish an ecological threat neither is your snail.

 

I gave the link that says otherwise. Either you didn't read it, read it but didn't understand it, or choose to ignore it. In any regard, you are wrong in your assertion. QED

 

BTW have you tried to address your dog problem in real life instead of in cyberspace yet? Buy a squirt gun, fill it with household ammonia cleaner, squirt the bastards in the face with it when they confront you, they will leave you alone. The whole idea of something so much a part of the human condition being reprehensible is so lame dude. You cherry pick your data to support your personal vendetta against a couple of dogs that harass you and ignore the fact that keeping pets is highly unlikely to harm anyone or anything. For every pet that causes a problem there must be tens of thousands that do not. maybe the next thread will be making love in reprehensible or sunbathing or nudity or breathing? I'm sure there is some evidence to support almost any position if you look for it hard enough. I'll make a deal with you, for every fish release you can show from a hobbyist that cuases a problem I'll show three that were released by the state.

 

My how you rant on yourself. Silly pet owners. Clearly you don't read every post to the thread, or you would know the current state of my dog problem. That everyone is quick to suggest that I harm the dogs stuns me as much as the denial of the detriments of pet-keeping. No matter how you whine about love and tradition and so on, you cannot dodge the evidence of the evironmental damage pet keeping is at the root of. You took that wild turtle and you have kept it out of its native environment & deprived it of its natural life as well as the population of turtles it lived with of genetic input and the ecology of its home the benefit of its turtle activity, and all so you can anthropomorphize a look on its face and set yourself on high as a "good turtle owner". Balderdash!! :phones: :shrug:

[Moontanman]

Yup! I love my turtles, in a pinch I can eat them! I rescued all my turtles off the road after they had been hurt in what would have been mortally wounded in the wild. I have no need what so ever to justify my pet keeping no more than I need to justify eating meat. Taking an animal from the wild as a pet is the same as killing it, genetically they are dead as far as the ecosystem goes and no I have no problem with that. You need to throttle back on the Nature Conservancy propaganda dude, they will have you committing suicide to remove your exotic invasive self from the ecology! Want to try and match me with the "horrendous" invasive? Feel lucky? Humans have made a many tens of thousands of years tradition out of introducing exotic invasives. It's one of the few things we do that other animals do not. From Rats to Cows and from chickens to cats humans have been introducing exotics since... well , the beginning. It's what we do, the Nature Conservancy is just bucking human nature!