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How soon will a moneyless society change the way we percieve each other?


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#205 CraigD

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Posted 20 October 2008 - 05:06 PM

So far, this is what I've gotten from this thread:

Step 1: Make everybody want to live in a utopian world
Step 2: ????
Step 3: We live in a utopian world.

Though I too am skeptical of its potential for success and suspicious of its lack of detail, Peacemaker did describe step 2 in more detail than “????”, a few weeks ago.

(How do we get there?)

I am currently meeting with a worldwide organisation which has been in existence for over 100 years who have ideas which are almost exactly in line with mine. Their jargon is a little dated, as are their proposed methods of 'getting there'. However, with a little editing and re-branding I believe I can direct their huge resource of people and communications in a more structured and modern way to reach the people of today.

I aim to use their resources to send a positive message to the peoples of this planet. Telling them that there are people who are ready, willing and able to guide us, as a species, to a better way of living. Right here, right now.

Once I have the attention of the peoples of the world I will indicate the hour and the day when the evolution will take place, should there be sufficient support. I would guage that support by asking the peoples of this planet to mark their doors and/or windows with a pre-agreed sign, which would be to hang, or tie something yellow to their front door handles, or display something yellow in their windows, That's all the initial support which will be required to take this forward.

Once I am satisfied that we have secured the will of the majority of the peoples of this planet for change, I will begin to engage the governmental leaders of the whole planet in talks to decide which areas should be targeted for relief from day one, and arrange for adequate resource to be sent to those areas in order to begin to save human life as soon as possible.

So step 2 expands to:
Step 2.1: Use the huge resources of a (unnamed) worldwide organization to communicate a plan to stop using money to the world. Included will be a message to people to show acceptance and support for the plan by displaying something yellow on doors and windows.
Step 2.2: When sufficient support is detected,
Step 2.2.1: Announce the date and time at which money will no longer be used (what some might term a revolution, but Peacemaker an “evolution”)
Step 2.2.2: “Engage the governmental leaders of the whole planet” to have them begin providing “relief” to those areas that need it.
Step 2.3: Everybody stops using money

While we’re prototyping plans for transforming our society into a moneyless one (or at least one in which no one lacks for any thing that can presently be purchased with money), Here’s my plan:
  • Improve production efficiency of everything
  • Produce more of everything than all markets demand
  • Cost of all goods decreases so much money is no longer useful
  • Stop using useless money
  • Start doing better things with our time than gaining, loosing, and managing money
The end result of this plan might, I think, reasonably be termed a utopia.
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#206 Zythryn

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Posted 20 October 2008 - 06:33 PM

Craig, you just did in 5 lines what Peacemaker couldn't do in 46 pages:)

#207 Pyrotex

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 02:49 PM

Gosh, Craig,
I think you did it. Even I understood it. Thanks.

Since money is going to become worthless, and probably an annoyance as well,
I will volunteer to manage the, uh... "waste disposal", as I live next to a huge dump site.
Send your worthless cash to me, Pyrotex, League City, Texas.
If I didn't love you guys so much, I wouldn't even think of taking on such a personal burden.
But hey! What are friends for?

Pyro

#208 freeztar

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 06:36 PM

show acceptance and support for the plan by displaying something yellow on doors and windows


;) Didn't anyone catch this satirical humor? :)

#209 Symbology

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 02:19 PM

While we’re prototyping plans for transforming our society into a moneyless one (or at least one in which no one lacks for any thing that can presently be purchased with money), Here’s my plan:

  • Improve production efficiency of everything
  • Produce more of everything than all markets demand
  • Cost of all goods decreases so much money is no longer useful
  • Stop using useless money
  • Start doing better things with our time than gaining, loosing, and managing money
The end result of this plan might, I think, reasonably be termed a utopia.


So if we could manage to get nano-technology to the level of "The Diamond Age" by Niel Stevenson, then we could use the nano-bots to disassemble all the resources in the world's landfills back down to their basic elements of carbon, nitrogen, hydrogen etc, and then feed those resources back into the constructors to make whatever we need.

Though I do think Nature has a bit of a head start on us with some fancy nano-bots called "bacteria." But all we need is a little biomimicry and maybe some biomancy and then we are set!

PS Item #3 is pure genius. Bravo.
:) :)

#210 Symbology

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 03:03 PM

While we’re prototyping plans for transforming our society into a moneyless one (or at least one in which no one lacks for any thing that can presently be purchased with money), Here’s my plan:

  • Improve production efficiency of everything
  • Produce more of everything than all markets demand
  • Cost of all goods decreases so much money is no longer useful
  • Stop using useless money
  • Start doing better things with our time than gaining, loosing, and managing money
The end result of this plan might, I think, reasonably be termed a utopia.


I just shared this with a friend out in the "real world" that also codes AI. I was saying that it was a good inspiration, since most everything he and I do is related to automation - making things faster. His key point was that every time we do it means a reduction in the need for human staff... and that has always bugged me. (I have always naively hoped that it would mean that existing staff could be more productive, proactive, and breath easier. Instead management keeps them just as stressed but fewer of them)

If we took it to the extreme where everything was automated, there would be no need for human effort... or the need to pay us... hence your point of everything being valueless.

That always seems to be the problem of getting closer and closer to dividing by zero. As soon as we start dividing by something smaller than "the one" then things start to get squirrely.

#211 Peacemaker

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 02:48 PM

This is an excellent observation. What will also be scarce is service and availability. There is food at the store, but that is not convenient enough, I need it delivered or I will starve. I cannot use a stove, I need everything microwavable. I do not want to walk to the kitchen to get a drink, I need the drink within reach no matter where I am. This may seem extreme, but we each have our own perception of what is acceptable convenience, and even with abundance of goods, availability to each person's satisfaction become the next class war.

There is far more fresh water on this planet than is required to support life, there is in fact an abundance of water. But people still suffer from drought because of issues of distribution.

Bill


Hi Bill,

I know you have a very negative outlook on my ideas, but they are much easier to understand if you ask yourself why not, instead of why?..

Thinking positively, I don't see why there should be a scarcity of service or availability once this system is fully up and running.

We are able to produce and distribute goods and services worldwide now. Why should that change?

Why shouldn't we just carry on doing what we successfully do every day, only without the encumbrance of money?

Take away the money and suddenly we CAN afford to mass produce better machinery and better technology.

We can provide more training for all of us in using this technology.

Suddenly we can afford to clear up land which has been polluted by industry and build facilities on it to provide food, or entertainment, or first class accommodation, or whatever we need to make our lives happier, healthier and more fulfilled.

There has been a lot of reference lately to post scarcity economics, and yes, the end result of what I believe in, would result in a post scarcity situation. However, I have to disagree that the best way to bring this about is to automate the production of all things BEFORE we can eliminate money. Who would PAY for the production of these things?

There isn't enough money in the world to PAY for the ramping-up of technology to this level. THAT can only be achieved in a society where money no longer exists.

As to the rest of your post Bill, are you a paraplegic?.. or are you arguing the case for paraplegics in a moneyless society?
If this is the case, then let me assure you that the mentally or physically incapacitated will be treated and catered for much better than they are currently, with nothing but the best standards of care and lifestyle we can provide. Why should we give them any less? They are our brothers and sisters.

If you ane not a paraplegic, and are not arguing for their rights, then do you have such a standard of living, currently, which provides these things? Do you expect to get one anytime soon?

As to the last part about water. You are absolutely correct. People still DO suffer from drought because of issues of distributiion. This is because governments do not feel the necessity to invest their tax dollars/pounds/yen/etc into systems of existing technology in order to provide excellent drinking water to the whole of society. BECAUSE THERE'S NO PROFIT IN IT. They could never recoup the outlay, and in reality what it would mean is that there would be, ultimately, more mouths to feed, more housing needed and more jobs to be created, because more people would be surviving to maturity... And who's gonna pay for that?

Enlightenment is but a brainwave away!

Ken

#212 Peacemaker

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 03:01 PM

I think that in his mind there is a counter intuitive logic to the plan that is, to Peacemaker, self evident. But to the rest of us appears as the nonsensical ravings of a lunatic mind.

I don't care what flavor the cool-ade is, I ain't drinkin'.

Bill


Cheap shot Bill, Perhaps you would be kind enough to review all my posts to date and indicate any nonsensical ravings. Also for any signs of lunacy. I am prepared to robustly defend anything I have said... and I haven't threatened to kill ANYBODY, unlike some I could mention.

Therein, truly, lies the nonsensical ravings of a lunatic mind.

Best regards,

Ken

#213 Peacemaker

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 04:22 PM

So you admit there should be a plan? Seriously, all we've been asking for is the details. We've said quite clearly that we understand there needs to be a plan.

But if your plan doesn't deal with real issues--and as Z is most recently pressing for, details on whether your plan assumes lack of scarcity or if not what your plan is for handling the transition where scarcity still exists--then you are in this quote arguing both sides: you need not provide a plan, but any complaints about whether its possible assume there is not one.

That's not discussion or debate, that's an inability to deal with reality.

Distinctions drawn by the mind are not necessarily equivalent to distinctions in reality, :shrug:
Buffy



Buffy, I have always said there should be a plan. Where do you get the idea that I now have to admit it? I have even outlined the plan, and yet you never mention this when you submit a reply.

Briefly, the plan is to convince people that our lives would be much better without money, by analysing the current situation and looking at it's flaws.

We then look at the potential benefits of removing those flaws from our future. We, as a race, are then guaranteed that we can have a war free, famine free, crime free, tax free world, without the existence of money and property ownership.

We encourage people to stop viewing strangers with suspicion, and to realise that we, as humans, are all one family. Historically separated by geography, philosophy, and language.

Once we have a majority of people in agreement that things could be better by making this small change, we take the mental leap, and prove that it is all possible. We ensure that it is a minimal leap by using all the existing technology and equipment to start making things better immediately, using global planning.

We re-train people who have been employed in the monetary system for work where they feel they can be happiest and most productive. The day after this mental leap, the world will look exactly the same as it did the day before. The only thing that will have changed is our mental outlook. For the better.

Therefore we set in train a series of small events which will change the way that we, as human beings interact. We will automatically create universal equality, because without money or property, using the laws that I have formulated, no-one can be more equal than anyone else.

We then build the nearest thing we can imagine to heaven on earth, using existing technology, and we do this by working together and project managing every task, so that we achieve maximum effect for minimum effort. This is my plan in broad brush strokes. This is my vision for our future.

What's YOURS Buffy?

Oh, and I see that you too have jumped on the 'lack of scarcity' bandwagon. If you look it up in the Wikipedia you'll find that it means exactly what I have been espousing throughout this thread, except that in a monetary society it is impossible to achieve, because scarcity imparts financial value, so big business would never pursue lack of scarcity as a philosophy. So as a workable plan to gradually end the use of money on this planet, it's a non-starter.

It also has connotations of absolute automation of everything. This is not something I would agree with. Mankind needs the nobility of work in order that it doesn't descend into a general state of mental and physical torpor and decadence. A little hard, physical work ensures that we feel we deserve the benefits we will have, and give us a pride in what we will achieve.

I don't suppose that this will sway your disbelief in my ideas at all, but maybe it will help convince other readers that my view of the future is more positive and beneficial to mankind than yours, or anyone else's, currently is.

Best regards,

Ken

#214 Peacemaker

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 04:31 PM

Though I too am skeptical of its potential for success and suspicious of its lack of detail, Peacemaker did describe step 2 in more detail than “????”, a few weeks ago.So step 2 expands to:
Step 2.1: Use the huge resources of a (unnamed) worldwide organization to communicate a plan to stop using money to the world. Included will be a message to people to show acceptance and support for the plan by displaying something yellow on doors and windows.
Step 2.2: When sufficient support is detected,
Step 2.2.1: Announce the date and time at which money will no longer be used (what some might term a revolution, but Peacemaker an “evolution”)
Step 2.2.2: “Engage the governmental leaders of the whole planet” to have them begin providing “relief” to those areas that need it.
Step 2.3: Everybody stops using money

While we’re prototyping plans for transforming our society into a moneyless one (or at least one in which no one lacks for any thing that can presently be purchased with money), Here’s my plan:

  • Improve production efficiency of everything
  • Produce more of everything than all markets demand
  • Cost of all goods decreases so much money is no longer useful
  • Stop using useless money
  • Start doing better things with our time than gaining, loosing, and managing money
The end result of this plan might, I think, reasonably be termed a utopia.


I like your idea better than most Craig, but who's gonna pay for it? My plan will improve the production efficiency of everything, but producing more of everything than all markets demand is both wasteful and non economic. In a capitalistic society, big business would never allow the cost of all goods to decrease so much that money was no longer useful. it would be financial suicide, and who's going to invest in that? The rest is bang on the money. (if you'll pardon the pun!).

Best regards,

Ken

#215 Peacemaker

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 04:45 PM

Craig, you just did in 5 lines what Peacemaker couldn't do in 46 pages:)


I think you'll find that he didn't, Z, if you read my reply to his post. Although he did have a good stab at it!

Best regards,

Ken

#216 Peacemaker

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 05:02 PM

I just shared this with a friend out in the "real world" that also codes AI. I was saying that it was a good inspiration, since most everything he and I do is related to automation - making things faster. His key point was that every time we do it means a reduction in the need for human staff... and that has always bugged me. (I have always naively hoped that it would mean that existing staff could be more productive, proactive, and breath easier. Instead management keeps them just as stressed but fewer of them)

If we took it to the extreme where everything was automated, there would be no need for human effort... or the need to pay us... hence your point of everything being valueless.

That always seems to be the problem of getting closer and closer to dividing by zero. As soon as we start dividing by something smaller than "the one" then things start to get squirrely.


Hi Symbology, I don't think I have communicated with you before.

Thanks for your views and your interest in something novel.

My view is that we don't allow ourselves to get to the point where things 'get squirrely'.

I believe that over automation of the world of the future will make mankind redundant, and we all know that 'the devil' makes work for idle hands, and minds. I can think of nothing more soul sapping than to be idle 24/365.

Mankind is a species that needs to feel valued and useful. We need to feel confident that we are in control of our own destiny. I hope you agree.

Best regards,

Peacemaker.

#217 Symbology

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 06:08 PM

I like your idea better than most Craig, but who's gonna pay for it? My plan will improve the production efficiency of everything, but producing more of everything than all markets demand is both wasteful and non economic. In a capitalistic society, big business would never allow the cost of all goods to decrease so much that money was no longer useful. it would be financial suicide, and who's going to invest in that? The rest is bang on the money. (if you'll pardon the pun!).

Best regards,

Ken


I have been trying to figure out the ingredients for a Utopian society, and the glitch I keep running into is how to keep people motivated. The problem will be that there are currently lazy folks that don't want to do anything because someone else currently provides for them, and there are even some people that choose not to do anything even though noone provides for them. Either group would demotivate the rest of us in a moneyless society. So I am wondering what can be done to (non-violently) motivate them.

#218 Symbology

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 06:17 PM

Hi Symbology, I don't think I have communicated with you before.

Thanks for your views and your interest in something novel.

My view is that we don't allow ourselves to get to the point where things 'get squirrely'.

I believe that over automation of the world of the future will make mankind redundant, and we all know that 'the devil' makes work for idle hands, and minds. I can think of nothing more soul sapping than to be idle 24/365.

Mankind is a species that needs to feel valued and useful. We need to feel confident that we are in control of our own destiny. I hope you agree.

Best regards,

Peacemaker.


Well to my observation (and that of the Star Trek writers of olden day), man needs to be challenged. Man kind can feel valued, useful, confident, and in control. But if he's got no real challenges then he will fabricate some for himself. Hence the inventions of football and war. If all those warlords had something constructive to do, like fend off alien invaders, then there wouldn't be near as much interest in taking stuff like oil from the other guy.

I mean just think about it... if Cheney had had something constructive to do, like go hunting with his friends on a regular basis instead of fabricating some story like WMD then how much less trouble we would be.... oh wait a minute... I guess he blew away that theory ... :)

#219 Peacemaker

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 01:20 PM

I have been trying to figure out the ingredients for a Utopian society, and the glitch I keep running into is how to keep people motivated. The problem will be that there are currently lazy folks that don't want to do anything because someone else currently provides for them, and there are even some people that choose not to do anything even though noone provides for them. Either group would demotivate the rest of us in a moneyless society. So I am wondering what can be done to (non-violently) motivate them.


Hi again Symbology.

I have covered this point in the frequently asked questions section of my document.

I believe that there are some people who are very lazy and will take advantage of such a system. However, I also believe that much of this stems from a feeling of being disenfranchised by the current system.

Many people are depressed and demotivated by the capitalist system, believing that they aren't getting their fair share for the effort they have put in to the system.

I know of many people who work hard, go to work every day, volunteer in their spare time and never break a law. In return for this the companies they work for pay them minimum wage, ask them to work overtime with no enhancement, and fire them when times get hard. I believe there is a lot of this going on in America right now. People working hard all their lives, trying to pay their bills, their taxes and their mortgages getting constantly kicked in the teeth by the system.

All most people ask for is a decent standard of living. A sense of pride in belonging to an organisation that is successful and strong. Leisure time where they can afford to go out and pursue hobbies and interests and socialise with their peers and be able to afford to pay their way among that peer group. Most people I know would rather work than take handouts. But that work has to have an adequate reward, otherwise it becomes meaningless and demotivational.

In times of recession, the crime rate goes up, the black economy thrives and people who may never have entertained the idea of criminality become lured by the 'easy money' of selling drugs, or smuggling, or stealing cars, or shoplifting.

In times of full employment, the reverse happens, and people once again take a pride in living honest lives. What I propose is to give every human being on earth the opportunity to belong to the strongest peer group ever created, a united mankind, where nobody gets gypped by the system.

When people mentally appraise what I believe in, they tend to look first at the worst characteristics of mankind, and generalise them to attempt to show why such a system would be doomed to failure.

I take the oposite view. I see the best in mankind, and generalise that.

I believe that we have the ability to mentally and physically better ourselves to a point where our negativity is defeated by the evidence of the betterment of our own lives.

What would be the point of being negative in a society where we all have access to pleasurable work, leisure facilities and the best of everything?

Hope this helps,

Peacemaker.
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#220 Symbology

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 02:02 PM

Hi again Symbology.


What would be the point of being negative in a society where we all have access to pleasurable work, leisure facilities and the best of everything?

Hope this helps,

Peacemaker.


It happens all the time. From what I can tell bad parenting begets bad behavior, and often more bad parenting.

#221 Buffy

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 03:31 PM

I have even outlined the plan, and yet you never mention this when you submit a reply.

Unfortunately, its not my fault that the "plan" you keep referring to is entirely content-free!

Fortunately you've reiterated it in this post, so I can use it as an example:

Briefly, the plan is to convince people that our lives would be much better without money, by analysing the current situation and looking at it's flaws.

What is the convincing part? What are the flaws you see? Why does money have anything to do with it? How do you address these flaws? Where is the part where you explain the how the flaws in your argument that we've all been pointing out are addressed?

We then look at the potential benefits of removing those flaws from our future. We, as a race, are then guaranteed that we can have a war free, famine free, crime free, tax free world, without the existence of money and property ownership.

Why? Sure a bunch of us can agree to get along, but what do we do about the others?

We encourage people to stop viewing strangers with suspicion, and to realise that we, as humans, are all one family. Historically separated by geography, philosophy, and language.

How do we "encourage?" How do we "convince?" How do we all end up removing that "separation" that divides us? Are we all going to speak the same language? How are our cultural backgrounds going to be harmonized? Will everyone have to comply with *your* view? How are the conflicts going to be resolved? Majority rule? Your say so?

Once we have a majority of people in agreement that things could be better by making this small change, we take the mental leap, and prove that it is all possible.

Is this change really "small?" You think so, but obviously a lot of other people don't agree! What is it that this "small change" really is?

If its so easy, why hasn't it been done already? Just because you were the only one smart enough to think of it?

We ensure that it is a minimal leap by using all the existing technology and equipment to start making things better immediately, using global planning.

How? What technology applies? What equipment? Guns to shoot all the people that don't agree with you? Global planning of what? What resources? What is it possible to make better immediately? What might we have to wait for?

We re-train people who have been employed in the monetary system for work where they feel they can be happiest and most productive.

What work? Who's going to do all those jobs that even Mike Rowe wouldn't do if the Discovery Channel didn't pay him a pile of cash?

The day after this mental leap, the world will look exactly the same as it did the day before. The only thing that will have changed is our mental outlook. For the better.

Why? No one has to do anything but have fun! Partay! Infinite Margaritas! I'm heading for the beach!

Therefore we set in train a series of small events which will change the way that we, as human beings interact. We will automatically create universal equality, because without money or property, using the laws that I have formulated, no-one can be more equal than anyone else.

What do we need events or laws for? I thought everyone was already convinced?

And "laws that I have formulated?" You? Alone? Nobody else has anything worthwhile to contribute?

We then build the nearest thing we can imagine to heaven on earth, using existing technology, and we do this by working together and project managing every task, so that we achieve maximum effect for minimum effort.

How? What technology? What's the plan that you're going to project manage? What are the milestones? What are the dependencies? What are the critical paths?

Heck, what are the attributes of "Heaven on Earth" so that we even know whether we've achieved the milestones?

Are you sure you know what project management is?

This is my plan in broad brush strokes. This is my vision for our future.

And there you have it: all you do is keep repeating the "broad brush strokes" when everyone is asking you for the "fine detail."

By the fact that you never talk about any of these details you show not only contempt for them but for those that ask for them.

That is not a quality of a successful leader of people who will change the world. In fact its quite the opposite.

What's YOURS Buffy?

Guess what? All of my "broad brush strokes" are exactly the same as yours, no matter how much you'd like to imply that anyone who has the temerity to ask you for any details is a "hater" who just wants things to be horrible.

I'm a realist who looks at the problems, and tries to find solutions that are actually quite popular like "spreading the wealth" and getting people with differing opinions into the same room so that they can discuss and work out their differences.

These are practical, small solutions. Will they bring "Heaven on Earth" like you promise? No, but they will make the world a better place.

That's a lot different than just saying "if everyone would just think like I do, then everything will be perfect and we won't need money."

Oh, and I see that you too have jumped on the 'lack of scarcity' bandwagon. If you look it up in the Wikipedia you'll find that it means exactly what I have been espousing throughout this thread, except that in a monetary society it is impossible to achieve, because scarcity imparts financial value, so big business would never pursue lack of scarcity as a philosophy. So as a workable plan to gradually end the use of money on this planet, it's a non-starter.

That's right, "scarcity imparts financial value." What many people have said in this thread many times is that unless you do away with scarcity, there will continue to be financial value.

Simply because you remove money does not remove scarcity.

Not even if everyone agrees to cooperate.

Is there any way to refute that simple statement?

If you have it, you could clue us in, but otherwise we're left with thinking that you dismiss this as a mere implementation detail.

It also has connotations of absolute automation of everything. This is not something I would agree with. Mankind needs the nobility of work in order that it doesn't descend into a general state of mental and physical torpor and decadence. A little hard, physical work ensures that we feel we deserve the benefits we will have, and give us a pride in what we will achieve.

Scarcity has nothing to do with automation, and in spite of me saying I want to go to the beach and drink margaritas, I'll also have my laptop with me (which will never need recharging because we've got that scarcity thing resolved) where I'll be writing my novel which everyone will read because its free!

You may have to automate septic tank cleaning, pot wash duty at the dorm, reject mail sorting, or software technical support (unless that lack of scarcity thing means that the code I write magically has no bugs in it!), and the technology that does not exist today to do those things will probably be fun to invent!

...but maybe it will help convince other readers that my view of the future is more positive and beneficial to mankind than yours, or anyone else's, currently is.

"...or anyone else's?" Hey, I never said I had the total solution to everything, but "your view" is better than *anyone's*?

Wow.

The bottom line is stringing together a bunch of glittering generalities is easy. But you won't get anywhere unless you answer the hard questions!

And that would be General James Mattoon Scott, would it? :turtle:
Buffy
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