Harry Costas Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 Hello All Hello Tomod Argument fallacy warning - Harry is trying to disrupt the discussion by implying that others do not know what they are talking about. That is a general statement, most of us do not know what we are talking about. Specially about black holes that we are unable to see but able to study its possible events by indirect observations. You saidSome basic particle physics might be in line here. Atomic nuclei are held together by the strong nuclear force. It is a strange force in that the further a nucleus particle goes away from the nucleus, the stronger the pull of the strong force is felt. Thus it is extremely hard to crack an atomic nucleus. This has nothing to do with black holes, which are objects of extreme gravity. The strong nuclear force is NOT gravity. Mate, I think you need to do some research in this field. What do you think a neutron or a quark star is? How do you think the compact cores are formed. During a supernova, iron is broken down by fission reactions down to hydrogen, proton to neutrons forming a metrix of a neutron core and if the heat and the electromagnetica forces are great enough than neutron are broken down to quarks and so on. Black holes,,,,,,,,, first you need to define what a black hole is. One definition is a "Well" with a singularity at the centre. This type of black hole does not exist.There is no evidence to support such a theory. Second definition. Just thinking aloud. An ultra dense degerated plasma matter that has huge amounts of heat and electromagnetic graviataional forces greater than the centre of the atomic nucleus. In order to get to this point electron shells are sucked into the nucleus changing protons to neutrons, to quarks to preon particals. By this time photons are unable to escape this super dense plasma matter. We can look at the properties of plasma which is able to create vortexes within allowing neutral door ways to the outside. We see this in jets from many so call black holes and neutron stars ejecting degenerated matter thousands of light years into space. It is more complicated than that,,,,,,,,,,just a summary. You can google for the jets. If you want links I will post them. As for the spin of a black holes, it is a common feature in most objects of the universe. Our solar system Our galaxy and so on. The disc is about 90Deg to the formation of the average position of the jets ejecting matter . This is not the norm, in active black holes the jets change positions an alter the formation and structure of the galaxy. Thats my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fwhorf Posted January 17, 2007 Report Share Posted January 17, 2007 Harry, are you saying that during the building of a black hole that matter is transformed by the force of gravity? If so what is the end result? The science channel had a show called Super Massive Black Holes. What I got from the show was; their are active and passive black holes. Some scientist now believe that the Andromeda Galaxy has a passive black hole. My explanation for a passive black hole is that over time all things balance into an equilibrium and the black hole stops feeding. The show mentioned that with the speed at which matter circle around the black hole, the process creates a great amount of heat, light, and energy obscuring the black hole from view. Astronomers, can see the results but not the actual void in space the black hole would create. Last question, is the black hole the end all or does it metamorph into something when its' cycle finishes? Thanks,Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larv Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 I am also curious of these so-called "tiny black holes," which are suspected by some scientist of populating our solar system in large numbers. In this regard, I will post what physicist Paul Davies says about tiny black holes in his excellent book “The Accidental Universe” (1982): The smallest structures predicted by known physics occur at the Planck length, Lp ~ 10^-35 m. Although the physics at such ultra-small dimensions is hopelessly beyond current experimental access, some theoretical modeling suggests that a scales ~ Lp profound modifications are necessary to the traditional concepts of space and time. The Planck regime is one that is characterized by the relevance of both gravity and quantum physics. …Einstein’s general theory of relativity describes gravity as a distortion or curvature of spacetime. One of the basic features of the quantum theory is the way in which particles and fields can undergo spontaneous fluctuations of a random nature. Hence, in the regime of quantum gravity, expected to become important on Planck length and time scales, it seems likely that violent fluctuations occur in the curvature of spacetime. Indeed, it is even possible that the topology of spacetime is very complex, with ‘wormholes’ and ‘bridges’. It has been remarked that spacetime, which is often compared to a smooth sheet or canvas on which nature’s activity is painted, resembles more a sponge-like, or foamy structure, on these very small length and time scales. Another picture is that spacetime is, in some vague sense, composed of Planck-size black holes packed together. After >20 years of theoretical physics his summary is still good. Tiny black holes have interesting implications. I’ve often wondered just how much and what kinds of information that we can ever understand survives way down there at a Planck length, especially if it is prone to violently random fluctuations...which seems like something a mischievous god could be involved with. —Larv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 Mate, I think you need to do some research in this field. Well, if by research you mean "posting links to articles all over the web, failing to understand them, and then posting a summary saying This is my opinion", then no, I'll pass. I read books, articles and talk to my colleagues instead. Works wonders. What do you think a neutron or a quark star is? Stars consisting basically of (respectively) neutrons and quarks. I find it funny that you already talk of "quark stars" when you fail to accept black holes - we have observational evidence for black holes, but only speculative ideas about quark stars. Oh, and quark stars would also be the results of gravitational forces. Sorry about that. Quark star - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia How do you think the compact cores are formed. During a supernova, iron is broken down by fission reactions down to hydrogen, proton to neutrons forming a metrix of a neutron core and if the heat and the electromagnetica forces are great enough than neutron are broken down to quarks and so on. Actually, the process that leads the star to nova is *creating* iron, and large portions of this iron ends up in the post-nova cloud together with other heavy elements. This is the only known process which creates elements heavier than helium if I'm not mistaken. A star will at most burn (edit) oxygen and perhaps silicon, but that is in the last and final stage before collapse. Black holes,,,,,,,,, first you need to define what a black hole is. One definition is a "Well" with a singularity at the centre. This type of black hole does not exist.There is no evidence to support such a theory. This is not a definition I have heard of. A black hole behaves *exactly* like any other object with the same mass. If the Earth was suddenly (by sheer magic) turned into a black hole, it would be very small but would remain in orbit around the sun, and the moon would still orbit it. The mass would be exactly the same, and the gravity well would be exactly the same. The reason why black holes are pictured as sun-gobbling monsters is because some of them tend to be *very big*, like the one at the heart of the Milky Way. The only mystery surrounding black holes is how matter behaves inside them. Since we cannot peer inside one, we cannot know as of yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 By the way, a good book about how stars form and die is "The Magic Furnace" by Marcus Chown. Hypography Science Bookstore - Books - The Magic Furnace: The Search for the Origins of Atoms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteNow Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 By the way, a good book about how stars form and die is "The Magic Furnace" by Marcus Chown. Hypography Science Bookstore - Books - The Magic Furnace: The Search for the Origins of Atoms That's just a good book all around. :phones: Lots of good chemistry in there as well... ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Costas Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 Hello All Tomod and infinitenowThank you for the link: As for the formation of atoms and the functioning of black holes I will come back to it. I will explain the formation of all the atoms upto Iron and expalin how the Iron atom is responsible for the supernova. I did not say that blach holes do not exist. I'm saying that objects with ultra dense degenerated matter having a mass of about 5 suns will prevent light from escaping. This is the type of black hole that I'm talking about. A point to note is that the compact core mass not the total mass surrounding. As for mini black holes. There are millions throught out the milky way and there is a swarm of black hole near the centre and a large one at the centre being a few million sun masses. The Swarm APOD: 2005 January 28 - The Swarm In respect to the make up of black holes. The seed in many cases is from a large star that has under gone a supernova. The Iron build up is broken down by high energy photons released by the core of the existing star to Helium to hydrogen to protons to neutrons. In smaller stars a neutron core is formed if there is greater amount of neutrons formed, these neutrons are broken down to quarks, creating the next stage, a quark composite and possible a preon quark composite and if sufficient mass is present light will not be able to escape the strong gravitaional, electromanetic and the strong forces that are present in the nucleus of an atom. In actual fact the core is a nucleon large body acting as one. HypernovaCosmos: The SAO Encyclopedia The origin of our solar system is from a supernova leaving behind a neutron core composite that created in time a solar envelope. http://www.omatumr.com/abstracts2006/NuclearCycleCosmosFigsInserted.pdf Growing Supermassive Black Holes from SeedsGrowing Supermassive Black Holes from SeedsThe above link is OK, but reference to the Big Bang has put them on the wrong track. How to find a black holeHow to find a black hole Puny black holes can eject Milky Way's starsPuny black holes can eject Milky Way's stars - astronomy - 13 September 2006 - New Scientist Space I would like to continue this, but my kids are calling to be taken out,,,,,,,time to smell the roses. Have a nice day. Oh !!!! yes again if I have offended anybody,,,,,,,,I'm very sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 I did not say that blach holes do not exist. No? Then why did you say this a few days back: White holes, black holes, singularities are just fantasy ideas. :QuestionM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Costas Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 Hello Tormod Originally Posted by Harry Costas White holes, black holes, singularities are just fantasy ideas. That is what I said and I stick by that. You still do not understand what I'm trying to say. Please define: White holes, black holes, singularities and than show me some support for these. I have already explained what a black hole is. It seem that you think along the lines of the Big Bang theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kailas_knight Posted February 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 Harry, I dont get it? why do you insist that black holes and white holes and singularities are fantasies ?. Every thing having mass distorts space -time ....a black hole is having infinite mass and density , so it warps and distorts space-time infinitly....... As far as a white hole is concerned , it is mathematically possible.The equation Karl Schwarzschild derived from einstein's relativity theory , describes ,two universes .one positive and one negative. One with a black hole which runs forward in time and other with a white hole , which runs back ward in time ..(an anti-black hole).. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.