Thinking about intelligent design(what Quran says?)

[Emre_1974tr]

no my friend, peace to all persons :

 

5:32. On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

 

And wants self defence to "beliver attackers" too,not for only unbeliver attackers:

 

49:9. If two parties among the "Believers" fall into a fight, make ye peace between them: but if one of them transgresses beyond bounds against the other then fight ye (all) against the one that transgresses until it complies with the command of Allah; but if it complies then make peace between them with justice and be fair: for Allah loves those who are fair (and just).

 

İf attackers are "beliver", you must do self defence to killers again. Quran only wants to "peace" and "paradise life".

 

And if you read all of 9. Sure, you can see the war for only "self defence".

 

4:90. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you or fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).

 

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Kill, fight and speaking bad are very big sins according to Quran. You can go to hell if you do them.

 

You can only and only do self defence.

 

Regards.

[CraigD]

Care to touch up any of these quotes from the Quran found in this video? YouTube - Nick Gisburne Video you know... since the Quran is truth and all.

You must read all of pragraph's. But this video showing "a sentence" from a Quran paragraph.

…

Read the all paragraphs my friend. Dont take a sentence from paragraph. This is wrong way.Real mind is in the all paragraph, in the all Quran.

I agree with Emre – Gisburne appears to have not only presented individual sentences from a Quran translation (one that translates specific Arabic words into an unusually severe English equivalents, eg: “doom” where more common translations use “chastisement”) out of context, he actually breaks up sentences, adding periods to make a long, qualified sentence appear to be short, often badly distorting its meaning. An example:

• 2.190 (from the Gisburne video): “Fight in the way of Allah”
  
• 2.190 (from M.H. Shakir translation): “And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.”
  

Gisburne’s video, with its ominous soundtrack, violent color scheme, and card display rate that doesn’t permit the average reader to fully read, let alone think about, the incompletely quoted Suras, is IMHO clearly an example of hate speech, designed to inflame viewers against Muslims. Were its text posted at hypography, it would be treated as “hate speech”, and its author banned.

 

Although Gisburne’s video is, in my judgment, a distortion of the Quran, I worry that not only English speaking people, but many Persian, Turkish, other non-Arabic, and even modern Arabic speaking Muslims may be vulnerable to the influence of distorted interpretations of the Noble Quran, much as some Christians have been mislead by distorted interpretations of the Holy Bible.

[phoenixbyrd]

Point taken, people do like twisting things. So I took it upon myself to look up one of the quotes and it's really not all that different. Using the Shakir transtlation 4:91

 

SHAKIR: You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.

 

And 4:89

 

 

SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

 

Both are very similar in context yet different in wording. For someone such as myself, how exactly am I to take such a message? How should I react to such things? Those two quote's are from the accepted shakir translation, both commanding to kill non-believers. And yet it's a religion that promotes truth and peace?

 

I've only bothered to look up those two so far. But seeing the message withing the same context as the supposed hate speach, I'm almost unsure as to weather I want to look up the rest and check them out.

[CraigD]

Point taken, people do like twisting things. So I took it upon myself to look up one of the quotes and it's really not all that different.

I strongly disagree. I found all of the text in the Gisburne video that I checked to be significantly – and, I think, purposefully – different than the Shakir translation.

 

Taking the two example phoenixbyrd gave:

• 4.91 (Sahkir): You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.
  
• 4.91 (Gisburne): If the unbeliever does not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant.
  

The first text begins by describing the person to be killed as a non-Muslim who seeks to be “secure from their own people” – in modern terms, a fugitive – by living among Muslims. It calls for such people to be compelled to withdraw in peace – to be expelled from Muslim land. If they refuse, the Quaran instructs Muslims to kill them.

 

Gisburne’s version of this text omits the qualification of where the person to be killed is, why they are presumed to be there, and any mention of their option to withdraw in peace without being killed. The impression I am left with from reading only Gisburne’s version is the Quran gives Muslims license to travel to wherever non-Muslims live, even if among “their own people” (such as the US) and kill them.

• 4.89 (Sahkir): They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
  
• 4.89 Gisburne: Have no unbeliever friends. Kill the unbeliever wherever you find them
  

The first text explains why Muslims should not be friends with non-Muslims (because non-Muslims desire Muslims to stop believing in their religious tenets) and, much like 4.91, says that they should be driven from their homes (and, presumably, completely from Muslim lands). If they turn back – refuse to leave – the Quaran instructs Muslims to kill them.

 

Again, Gisburne shortens, recapitalizes, and re-punctuates to imply that 4.89 instructs Muslims to seek out and kill non-Muslims anywhere, even lands that are not Muslim.

 

From my limited reading of its translations, the impression I have of the Quran is that it clearly speaks against the idea of Muslims and non-Muslims living in the same countries, and demands the violent expulsion of all people who are not or will not convert to Muslim from Muslim countries. This is a disturbing message, much like various passages from the Old Testament of the Bible which are widely regarded as historic descriptions, not prescriptions from present-day behavior (eg: Exodus 22:18 (KJV): “Thou shalt not suffer [allow] a witch to live.”) However, Grisburne and others appear to me to be attempting to purpusfully distort the Quaran’s message of segregation and isolation into one of unbridled, murderous aggression. I suspect that they do so either to provoke aggression against relatively small, predominantly Muslim nations in the Middle East by much larger and more powerful, predominantly Christians nations in America and Europe. Such provocation is, in my opinion, counter to the best interests of human beings of all nationalities and religions.

[phoenixbyrd]

* 4.91 (Sahkir): You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.

* 4.91 (Gisburne): If the unbeliever does not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant.

 

The first text begins by describing the person to be killed as a non-Muslim who seeks to be “secure from their own people” – in modern terms, a fugitive – by living among Muslims. It calls for such people to be compelled to withdraw in peace – to be expelled from Muslim land. If they refuse, the Quaran instructs Muslims to kill them.

 

I'm unsure as to how you gleaned that the first text from shakir translates to 'in muslim land'. From what I read it says wherever you find them. I'm not an authority on the Quran or its... supposed peacfull messages, but when I see passages calling out for the murder of non believers, then it raise abit of alarm for me. Any religious doctirine that commands one to murder another, even if it's in just muslim land only is not a religion of peace. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Michaelangelica]

Examples from Quran ...........

17. Do they not look at the Camels, how they are made?-

Two models, one hump or two.

4. We have indeed created man in the best of moulds,

Penicillin?

8. And created you in pairs,

6. He created you (all) from a single person: then created, of like nature, his mate;

Most of us, but not all. Some even get to choose what permutation they would like.

14. And do We not send down from the clouds water in abundance,

bit light on, in the middle east and Oz

15. That We may produce therewith corn and vegetables,

"Corn" ? Now I get it. So was God or Allah an American!

 

77. Doth not man see that it is We Who created him from sperm? Yet behold! he (stands forth) as an open adversary!

5. O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot,

He could brush up a bit on his 101 biology class.

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Is the Koran available in English?

I would like to read it one day

Seems the prophet repeats himself a lot.

Are those the best bits?

So do you believe in Intelligent design or not?

[Emre_1974tr]

Dear Friend;

 

English Quran

 

ENGLISH QURAN A. YUSUF ALİ / Kuran.gen.tr, Kuran, Kur'an, Kuran-i Kerim, kuranikerim, Quran, qur'an, Al qur'an, Quran, holyquran, holy, coran, kuruan, koran, corano,koraani, islam, muslim, allah, arabic, türkçe,meal, der heilige Koran, islam, musl

 

And for intelligent design:

 

Quran Miracles.

 

Regards.

[CraigD]

Is the Koran available in English?

ENGLISH QURAN A. YUSUF ALİ / Kuran.gen.tr, Kuran, Kur'an, Kuran-i Kerim, kuranikerim, Quran, qur'an, Al qur'an, Quran, holyquran, holy, coran, kuruan, koran, corano,koraani, islam, muslim, allah, arabic, türkçe,meal, der heilige Koran, islam, musl

Emre’s linked-to translation seemed a bit over-fancy, and wanted to install an activeX control on my Windows box.

 

I prefer this text-only one, an 1983 translation by M.H.Shakir. Searches of it are available here.

[Freddy]

The Meaning of the Holy/Glorious Qur'an/Koran is an explanatory Sunni translation of the Qur'an by Marmaduke Pickthall 1936. I have this translation from a 1996 printing.