Teach your children well

[Freethinker]

This is a continuation of an off topic digression on another thread. It involved things kids are taught. We found that at times children are intentionally lied to in their education. One side claims Science as taught in Public Schools is a lie. Others find religious education or home schooling to be problematic in this regard.

 

e.g. one teen here was specifically taught that STD germs are inside of all of us and only develop into illness when a person has sex with more than one partner.

 

This is obviously not only a LIE, it is a DANGEROUS LIE!

 

Then there was the claim by a person that home schools her children that she would never lie to them. She also admits to teaching them Abstenence Only style sexuality. That Abstenence is the only way to assure 100% protection from STD's.

 

When it was pointed out to her that STD's can be transmitted in other ways, such as rape, and therefore she is LYING to her children, well..

 

Or that she teaches them that Jesus is GOD and lived and died and rose and and you are gaurenteed Heaven just by accepting Jesus. Yet she admits that this is not 100% factual.

 

I will transfer a few here to start with and others can transfer one's they feel belong.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Posted by FreeT:

 

REALITY - You could have never had any sexual contact and still catch an STD.

 

Ok, I'm asking for clarification here, not contradicting you (I believe you on this, but just want to be sure I understand what you mean).

 

Do you mean that people that have never had sex could catch an STD, such as HIV, from a blood transfusion? Or HIV from a parent to a child? Or herpes during childbirth? Or do you mean herpes from oral sex? Or crabs from a toilet seat? Or all? Or a different example?

Does it matter? The TRUTH of the statement is validated if ANY of the examples is TRUE. And obviously some are and some not. A list of how many or which is irrelevant. Unless you want to discuss STD's and their transmission.

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Posted by FreeT:And LYING about only increases the harm to society that STD's can do because epople will not take the extra precautions needed.

And do you mean that people should be more selective about the blood they receive? Or who they have oral sex with? Or where they use the restroom? Or all? Or a different example?

While some of these are valid and related, no that was not my specific inteded reference.

 

My concern is the fact that our children are being lied to and taught that Abstenence ONLY is a realistic and benefitial program. Statistically teens that claim adherance to Abstenence are 30% more likely to NOT use appropriate protection (condoms) when they DO have sex.

 

The REALITY is that some percent of teens have sex regardless of whether they claim to adhere to Abstenence or not. To teach Abstenence ONLY is to give a completely false concept of sexuality. Further by the Federal Government forcing Abstence ONLY teaching to be the ONLY sexual education teens receive is to cause great harm by lying to them and not properly preparing them for REALITY.

[IrishEyes]

Oh FreeT, I really was hoping that it wouldn't come to this. Now Tormod is really going to bust us both.

 

Then there was the claim by a person that home schools her children that she would never lie to them.

Very cute!

 

Ok, I'm going to clarify the 'abstinence' argument, in plain language that you can understand. As this will, undoubtedly, contradict something that I have probably posted already, go ahead and call me a liar. For the rest of you that are more understanding, and have even made similar errors yourself when trying to keep track of multiple discussions in many threads and have inadvertantly contradicted something you may have posted - thanks for your understanding!!

 

Yes, I do teach my children that abstinence before marriage, and remaining in a monogamous marriage, is the best way for them to avoid STDs. I do not fill their heads with the threat of rape, and I don't tell them to avoid public restrooms for fear of catching STDs. They are aware that there are a variety of ways to catch various diseases, including - but not limited to- sex with multiple partners, unprotected sex, blood transfusions, toilet seats, sexual violence (rape), oral sex, kissing, mouth-to-mouth resucitation, and others. I stress that while there are ways that are reasonably safe for preventing most of these diseases, personal abstinence is still the best way that they can make sure they will not contract them.

 

They also know that I believe abstinence is the best way to avoid pregnancy. I am not naive enough to believe that all of my children will always be able to avoid situations that could lead to rape; I do know that I am keeping them all reasonably safe right now. Yes, I know that someone could break in at night and rape and kill us all, or that we could be carjacked while driving through town, but those situations, while possible, are not the norm, and I do not want to instill that sort of fear into their daily lives. I think there is a huge difference between caution and paranoia, and I will not saddle my children with the latter.

 

My (older) children also know that I did not practice abstinence before marriage, that I have had more than two sexual partners, that I have had unprotected sex, and that I have been very fortunate NOT to have contracted HIV, or any other diseases. Through very open and honest (and sometimes frightfully difficult and embarrassing) discussions, I hope that they will be much more prepared for life than I was. They are aware of condoms, and the pill, and many other accepted (and even the sillier) forms of birth control. They know that each is effective to a certain degree, if used properly. So I guess I have not taught "Abstinence only". However, I strongly emphasize that I believe abstinence is the safest, easiest, and most effective form of pregnancy and disease prevention, and they agree (so far). Whether this will hold for all of them remains to be seen.

[IrishEyes]

From FreeT:

Or that she teaches them that Jesus is GOD and lived and died and rose and and you are gaurenteed Heaven just by accepting Jesus. Yet she admits that this is not 100% factual.

 

Yes, yes, yes, yes, and sort of.

 

I do teach my children that Jesus is God. I also teach them that Jesus lived; and that He died; and that He rose again; and that anyone can go to Heaven by accepting that they are sinners, believing that Jesus died for their sins, and asking forgiveness from God for their sins, PLUS NOTHING ELSE (meaning that there is no list of extra works to do to get to Heaven).

 

I also admit that MY beliefs may not be 100% correct. I do not tell my children that I have all of the answers to every question they may have about God, Jesus, creation, or why things happen. I also do not tell them that everything I say, or believe, has always been what I believe now, or that my opinions or feelings will never change.

 

I think that I have admitted that my beliefs do not have what you, FreeT, would consider a basis in facts, as there is not an acceptable (to you) amount of proof that supports them. If I have not said that, I'm saying it now, but I'm fairly certain that I've already posted that, or something very similar. And yes, there is always the possiblity that I am wrong, but I do not believe that to be the case. If Im wrong, you can laugh at me when I'm dead and buried and my existence is over. If I'm not wrong, well, I promise you that I won't be laughing at you, ok?

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

My (older) children also know that I did not practice abstinence before marriage, that I have had more than two sexual partners,

Irisheyes at an orgy. I thought I recognized your butt on that groupgrope web site! :-)

that I have had unprotected sex, and that I have been very fortunate NOT to have contracted HIV, or any other diseases. Through very open and honest (and sometimes frightfully difficult and embarrassing) discussions, I hope that they will be much more prepared for life than I was. They are aware of condoms, and the pill, and many other accepted (and even the sillier) forms of birth control. They know that each is effective to a certain degree, if used properly. So I guess I have not taught "Abstinence only". However, I strongly emphasize that I believe abstinence is the safest, easiest, and most effective form of pregnancy and disease prevention, and they agree (so far). Whether this will hold for all of them remains to be seen.

OK, on a serious note,

 

One then has to ask, since you have stated before that you are active in what is taught at your local Public Schools (even though you keep your own kids out of them) and intend to become more so, do you promote the same "Abstenence ONLY education is NOT what our children need to be taught"?

 

I remember in an earlier discussion (please don't make me waste time digging up) RE the bible/ OT, you stated that Christians are not bound to the OT laws (e.g. killing witches). Yet when I posted the logical outcome of then not supporting efforts to post the 10 Commandments in Public places, you switched sides again.

 

So once more, how consistant are you? Do you promote an educational process for ALL kids which matches the one you actually provide to your kids? Do you fight efforts to have exclusive Abstenence Only programs taught in Public Schools?

[IrishEyes]

Also, as far as whether or not it is a lie to teach them about Jesus, God, and my personal beliefs, I will post in this thread what I recently re-posted in anothr thread...

 

 

 

04/27/2004 03:59 PM

 

... My children have been taught to question everything, including what their parents believe about God. I will not tolerate them being forced into a blind belief in religious idealogies any more than I tolerate the accepted standardized methods for teaching any other subject.

 

As I teach them to think for themjselves, but I also explain what I believe to be true, I don't feel I am a liar. If you feel otherwise, you have the right to your opinion.

[Uncle Martin]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

 

 

... My children have been taught to question everything, including what their parents believe about God. I will not tolerate them being forced into a blind belief in religious idealogies any more than I tolerate the accepted standardized methods for teaching any other subject.

 

I'm curious, how accepting of them will you be should they decide that Wicca or athiesm or any beliefs that contradict yours is the better choice for them?

[IrishEyes]

Irisheyes at an orgy. I thought I recognized your butt on that groupgrope web site! :-)

 

My butt? NO WAY. It was my RIGHT BREAT that I bared to the world on that website!! Trust me, noone deserves to be subjected to pictures of my butt!!

 

Christians are not bound by Mosaic Law in order to get to Heaven. Explaining further, I believe that before Christ (OT), in order to get to Heaven you had to follow Mosaic Law, in a way - you earned it through belief in God and closely adhering to the rules that He set forth (the 10 C's). After the DBR of Christ, relying on your own works was no longer the way to Heaven. Jesus was promised in the OT as a Saviour, and when He came and died and rose again, he lifted the need to follow Mosaic Law for Heaven.

 

I'll continue this later... Just got word of a death in my neighborhood and need to fix some freezer meals now. Will try to complete this thought later this evening.

[IrishEyes]

I'm curious, how accepting of them will you be should they decide that Wicca or athiesm or any beliefs that contradict yours is the better choice for them?

 

My love for and acceptance of my children is not dependant upon their adherance to my personal belief structure. If they should choose to practice a different form of religion, or no religion, that will be their choice. It will sadden my heart, but it will not stop me from loving them, or from accepting their right to choose their own path. Free will was given to me, and I can not try to keep it from my children. I can only hope that whatever they choose, they will be tolerant of people with differing viewpoints or beliefs.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Also, as far as whether or not it is a lie to teach them about Jesus, God, and my personal beliefs, I will post in this thread what I recently re-posted in anothr thread...

 

04/27/2004 03:59 PM

... My children have been taught to question everything, including what their parents believe about God. I will not tolerate them being forced into a blind belief in religious idealogies any more than I tolerate the accepted standardized methods for teaching any other subject.

 

As I teach them to think for themjselves, but I also explain what I believe to be true, I don't feel I am a liar. If you feel otherwise, you have the right to your opinion.

I had asked before if you can back this up. Do you really promote that you do not fully believe in the whole Christian thing? Would your children post on this site (or admit in any public forum) that they are aware that the whole Jesus thing could be a myth?

[Uncle Martin]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

 

 

My love for and acceptance of my children is not dependant upon their adherance to my personal belief structure. If they should choose to practice a different form of religion, or no religion, that will be their choice. It will sadden my heart, but it will not stop me from loving them, or from accepting their right to choose their own path. Free will was given to me, and I can not try to keep it from my children. I can only hope that whatever they choose, they will be tolerant of people with differing viewpoints or beliefs.

 

Fair enough. I hope it works as well in practice as in theory. The reason I asked is that when I was a child my parents taught many different religious views and told me to make my own choice. My Mother is Catholic, my Father is Christian Scientist (heh-heh), I have two siblings that are Baptists and one that is Catholic. This creates some tension among them, but nothing too strained. I, as the only Agnostic Athiest in the family, do experience a good deal of animosity. I am accepting of their views and go out of my way to avoid expressing mine, yet I am a bit of an outcast for my lack of belief in a supernatural power.

 

Some of my in-laws are EXTREME FANATIC FUNDAMENTALIST Christians. I mean the speak in tongues, dance around a bonfire naked with rattlesnakes type. They think I'm the devil and will not be in the same room with me. (which is OK with me, they have told me I need to be killed). The point I'm trying to make is that it has been my experience that non religious people are more tolerant of differing views than the religious. The more religious they are the less tolerant they are. It is not my intention to stereotype here, these are just my personal experiences.

 

I would also add, at a recent job interview the first question was "what church do you attend, I'll need to talk to your preacher", and then "well, you are a republican... right?". I was of course never contacted again by this individual. Had it not been a small family owned business I would have sued. This stuff happens everyday in the real world.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Christians are not bound by Mosaic Law in order to get to Heaven. Explaining further,...

 

I'll continue this later... Just got word of a death in my neighborhood and need to fix some freezer meals now. Will try to complete this thought later this evening.

Boy it's tempting to do some "Dark Humor", must resist, must resist.....

 

I am not interested in turning this into another convolution of why you want to ignore Matthew 5:18.

 

I brought up that issue to show past lack of continuity on the OT/10C issue relative to potential lack of continuity on "teaching" sexual information in public schools.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Uncle Martin

My Mother is Catholic, my Father is Christian Scientist (heh-heh), I have two siblings that are Baptists and one that is Catholic. This creates some tension among them, but nothing too strained. I, as the only Agnostic Athiest in the family, do experience a good deal of animosity. I am accepting of their views and go out of my way to avoid expressing mine,

Why is it the only one's capable of logical thinking, the only ones who's philosophy is based on truth and reason, are the ones that stand by quietly while the ignorant masses have no compunction in spewing their superstitious nonsense at every chance?

The more religious they are the less tolerant they are.

And it will continue that way as long as they are allowed to go unchallenged. They get louder and more powerful because they get away with it. Because it "creates some tension" if we bother to speak truthfully?

 

And we let them get away with every type of discrimnation they can think of:

I would also add, at a recent job interview the first question was "what church do you attend, I'll need to talk to your preacher", and then "well, you are a republican... right?". I was of course never contacted again by this individual. Had it not been a small family owned business I would have sued. This stuff happens everyday in the real world.

They deserve to be hit with a massive law suit and lose everything. Screw em. If they can dump on you, use their own tenets "an eye for an eye". Why do they deserve special protection?

 

What are we TEACHING our children if we intentionally allow ignorance prejudices and ahteful behavior?

 

We teach them that we are inferior and it is OK for them to get stepped on. Is that the lesson we want them to learn?

[Uncle Martin]

Originally posted by: Freethinker

 

UM says

I would also add, at a recent job interview the first question was "what church do you attend, I'll need to talk to your preacher", and then "well, you are a republican... right?". I was of course never contacted again by this individual. Had it not been a small family owned business I would have sued. This stuff happens everyday in the real world.

 

FT says,

They deserve to be hit with a massive law suit and lose everything. Screw em. If they can dump on you, use their own tenets "an eye for an eye". Why do they deserve special protection?

 

 

What are we TEACHING our children if we intentionally allow ignorance prejudices and ahteful behavior?

 

 

 

We teach them that we are inferior and it is OK for them to get stepped on. Is that the lesson we want them to learn?

 

I agree. Being a minority atheist in Alabama is no excuse for a pacifist attitude. If nothing else I try to grow as a person everyday, and have every intention of speaking up for what I know is right. I may not have the resources to retain an attorney, but the ACLU does just love this type of case!!

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Uncle Martin

I agree. Being a minority atheist in Alabama is no excuse for a pacifist attitude. If nothing else I try to grow as a person everyday, and have every intention of speaking up for what I know is right. I may not have the resources to retain an attorney, but the ACLU does just love this type of case!!

Have you contacted any of the Atheist/ Freethought groups in Alabama. Interestly, these groups tend to be more active in the South than other areas. Typically because members feel even more segregated from other locals than more liberal areas.

 

Alabama Freethought Association

http://alabamafreethought.org/

 

Skeptics-Freethought of North Alabama

http://www.geocities.com/rrbama66/SFNA

[Uncle Martin]

Freethinker,

 

Thanks so much for posting the above links. After reading through them I followed their links and their links etc....etc...and after 10 hours of reading I can honestly say I have seen the light!!!. I see the world more clearly than I really wanted to yesterday, not as clearly as I'd like now. Reality is not what it appears at first glance, there are many disturbing notions. But alas, there is no return to blissful ignorance, so onward I go.

 

Again, Thank You,

 

Uncle Martin

[Freethinker]

Unc. are just saying all these nice things to stop me from going Midevilorator on your ***? :-)