Rosa Parks

[questor]

Tormod, in this country , as well as in others, there are racial problems. we have black political demagogues who call themselves leaders, who make a living keeping the racial fires burning. and we have liberals who are enablers, who prevent minorities from facing the facts of life about themselves and the reason for their failures. poor people of any race do not get the same quality of legal representation as the wealthy. this is a money problem, not a a racial problem. our libraries are free, our schools are state supported. anyone who wishes to be educated can become so. it is no longer a skin problem for most whites, it's a culture problem. in the USA, anyone willing to get an education, stay off drugs, avoid pregnancy, and work hard will do well in this society. the opportunity is available, but you're not going to get anywhere by crying racism when you do nothing to help yourself or when you commit crimes.

[Tormod]

Tormod, the answer is yes. people who commit crimes are more likely to be prosecuted than those who do not.

 

You're stating a fact. That's not an answer to my question, sorry.

 

Here are some stats for you:

 

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm

 

Here are some interesting statistics:

 

Lifetime likelihood of going to State or Federal prison

 

* If recent incarceration rates remain unchanged, an estimated 1 of every 15 persons (6.6%) will serve time in a prison during their lifetime.

 

* Lifetime chances of a person going to prison are higher for

 

-- men (11.3%) than for women (1.8%)

-- blacks (18.6%) and Hispanics (10%) than for whites (3.4%)

 

* Based on current rates of first incarceration, an estimated 32% of black males will enter State or Federal prison during their lifetime, compared to 17% of Hispanic males and 5.9% of white males.

 

It shows that roughly 1/3 of blacks will go to prison during their lifetime, whereas only 3 out of every 100 whites will do the same.

[questor]

Tormod, i must be missing some thing, your own staistics show that blacks commit more crimes than others. that is why more of them are in jail. blacks who are not criminals are not in jail.

 

from your link:

 

Homicide trends in the U.S.

Trends by race

Racial differences exist, with blacks disproportionately represented among homicide victims and offenders

Blacks were 6 times more likely than whites to be murdered in 2002

 

maybe it would be easier for you to clearly state you premise.

[rockytriton]

Tormod, I understand your stats there, but the point that questor is making is a good one about it not being a race issue, but being a money issue. I would like to see the same stats based on race and money:

 

1. ratio of middle/upper class blacks/whites going to jail.

2. ratio of lower class blacks/whites going to jail.

 

I think that you will see the numbers are probably very close for blacks and whites in these situations.

[Tormod]

Homicide trends in the U.S.

Trends by race

Racial differences exist, with blacks disproportionately represented among homicide victims and offenders

Blacks were 6 times more likely than whites to be murdered in 2002

 

My bold. It says blacks are more likely to be murdered. Why this is so is because of very complex social issues.

 

Now, why is this? Do you think blacks are more likely to be criminal than other people?

 

maybe it would be easier for you to clearly state you premise.

 

My "premise" is that racism is as real as ever, although it may be less apparent than it has been. You seem to think that blacks are more likely to be jailed because they tend to be more criminal. What do you base such an assumption upon?

 

Do you think it's a genetic issue, or is it because of social injustice?

[Tormod]

Tormod, I understand your stats there, but the point that questor is making is a good one about it not being a race issue, but being a money issue. I would like to see the same stats based on race and money:

 

1. ratio of middle/upper class blacks/whites going to jail.

2. ratio of lower class blacks/whites going to jail.

 

I think that you will see the numbers are probably very close for blacks and whites in these situations.

 

Yes, if you think so then I would gladly review any data to show it.

 

By the way, remember money is not the same as social status.

[rockytriton]

Yes, if you think so then I would gladly review any data to show it.

 

By the way, remember money is not the same as social status.

 

Yes, you are right about the social status.

 

This post reminds me of something that I was reading in a book by Richard Feynman. I don't remember the exact wording but here is the gist of it:

 

He was in some foreign country, I think it was Brazil, but not sure. He got into a cab and the driver was black. He told the driver that he wanted to drive around the slums just to see the culture or whatever. The driver was happy that he wanted to see these types of things and he said that afterwards he had a question for him. So he went through the black slums section and he talked about the people and how poor they were and how they just couldn't catch a break. Then drove through the Indian sections of the slums and he talked about how this guy was living in poverty and his son was at Johns Hopkins University. Then he showed these two Indian women who saved up money to buy a sewing machine and now they have a business fixing people's clothing.

 

After the drive he asked Dr. Feynman why it seemed that the Indian people were living in these slums yet they were working toward getting out of the slums, at least for their children to and he wanted to know why he thought that the black people just stayed in the slums and never got out. Of course not knowing the answer to this question, Feynman gave what he thought may be a cause, he said that it's probably because the Indian people have a very long history and culture where education is very important and where people think it's important to make a better life for their children. He said that the blacks don't have as long a history as the Indians and that their culture was never able to fully develop partially because of slavery and opression (not just by whites by also by Muslims and others throughout history). He said that the Indian people due to their culture have always believed in investing in the future, while the blacks have never built that belief in their culture. The driver was satisfied with his response and told him that he had plans for the future and was investing in the future, he told Feynman that he had some money on a horse and was going to win big if the horse won the race. This is the difference in what he thought of as investing in the future and what the Indians that he showed exaples of thought of investing in their futures.

 

The blacks never (at least to my knowledge) had a real civilization with governments and such until fairly recently, at least not at the same level as Indians or Europeans. So maybe Dr. Feynman was right about this, I think he probably was.

[questor]

Tormod, the statistics i posted from your link show that most murders are committed by blacks upon blacks. perhaps you should reread my post.

maybe a little American history...slavery was abolished around 1865. since then we have had numerous civil rights laws and Supreme Court rulings on race issues to ''even the playing field ''. racial issues exist not just between whites and blacks, but blacks and Koreans, Japanese and Koreans, etc. racism is not solely a black and white issue. the issue now is culture and individual ambition. there are many black millionaires ( look at statistics ), there are many black corporate leaders , politicians, business owners and lawyers. these are facts.

we still have racial problems because of mainly two groups, blacks who refuse to join the system and liberals who tell the blacks it is not their fault, it is the white man's fault.

any person of any color can succeed in this country. the proof is obvious and unarguable.

failues fail because of themselves, not because of the system. free libraries, cheap books,

many self help courses at high schools and colleges make education easy to get. the successful take advantage of this, the losers do not.

we have assimilated many cultures into our society, asian, middle eastern, scandinavian,

in the last 50 years. this does not mean i have them all to my house, but they have a chance at success if they work.

the worst and most negative culture we have is the uneducated American black. after all these years of freedom, he has not created a culture that enables him to compete successfully in our system. his music is rap and hip-hop. he avoids libraries, he takes and sells drugs, he abandons his children, 60% of the children have only one parent, he avoids education and avoids employment. his days are spent ( hanging out or chillin ). who would hire this person ? who would respect this person ? who would want his children to asssociate with this person ? these are the criminals. these are the ''disproportionate''

people you talk about.

there are many whites who also fit this pattern, they too are poor and not respected.

and frequently end up in jail.

the bottom line is : good, educated , working people become successful, the others do not. it's very simple.

[Tormod]

The blacks never (at least to my knowledge) had a real civilization with governments and such until fairly recently, at least not at the same level as Indians or Europeans. So maybe Dr. Feynman was right about this, I think he probably was.

 

The first civilizations were indeed African. Ancient Kemet is one of the oldest civilizations we know. Egypt is African.

 

I don't know how you would qualify the statement "blacks never had a real civilization", rocky. Are you talking about American blacks or blacks in general?

[Tormod]

Tormod, the statistics i posted from your link show that most murders are committed by blacks upon blacks. perhaps you should reread my post.

maybe a little American history...slavery was abolished around 1865.

 

Slavery was abolished, yes. But segregation was a common practise in the South until the 1960s. But I am not talking only about blacks. I am talking about racism in general.

 

(For the record, I have a few years of American history in my college education).

 

Here is a wiki entry on segregation in the US:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_segregation#USA

 

racial issues exist not just between whites and blacks, but blacks and Koreans, Japanese and Koreans, etc. racism is not solely a black and white issue.

 

Agreed. It is a complex and difficult issue.

 

the issue now is culture and individual ambition. there are many black millionaires ( look at statistics ), there are many black corporate leaders , politicians, business owners and lawyers. these are facts.

 

But these facts show nothing and predict nothing. What is the percentage of non-white people on big company boards in the US? That would be an interesting statistic to see.

 

we still have racial problems because of mainly two groups, blacks who refuse to join the system and liberals who tell the blacks it is not their fault, it is the white man's fault. any person of any color can succeed in this country. the proof is obvious and unarguable.

 

"Anyone can succeed" is merely a tautology. We would need to define success in order to find out what it means.

 

failues fail because of themselves, not because of the system. free libraries, cheap books, many self help courses at high schools and colleges make education easy to get. the successful take advantage of this, the losers do not.

 

Wow. Each to his own, eh? So if you don't go to college, you're a loser.

 

we have assimilated many cultures into our society, asian, middle eastern, scandinavian, in the last 50 years.

 

"into our society"? Past 50 years? Remember, the United States is a nation of African, European and Asian immigrants (over a million Norwegians emigrated to the US in the 1800s). The past 50 years have seen the US become more protectionist than ever before - I think you're twisting history upside down here.

 

the worst and most negative culture we have is the uneducated American black. after all these years of freedom, he has not created a culture that enables him to compete successfully in our system. his music is rap and hip-hop. he avoids libraries, he takes and sells drugs, he abandons his children, 60% of the children have only one parent, he avoids education and avoids employment. his days are spent ( hanging out or chillin ). who would hire this person ? who would respect this person ? who would want his children to asssociate with this person ? these are the criminals. these are the ''disproportionate''

people you talk about.

 

I am stunned. This sounds like it is copied straight from a KKK meeting. Where do you have this from? Can you prove that hip hop stems from "enuducated, drug-selling, employment-avoiding blacks"? Questor, this statement is the *most* racist comment I have seen here at Hypography to date.

 

there are many whites who also fit this pattern, they too are poor and not respected. and frequently end up in jail. the bottom line is : good, educated , working people become successful, the others do not. it's very simple.

 

Is this some sort of justification, then? Since "many whites" also fit the extreme view above, then it is correct?

 

I dare you to find any proof for anything you have written above.

[rockytriton]

The first civilizations were indeed African. Ancient Kemet is one of the oldest civilizations we know. Egypt is African.

 

I don't know how you would qualify the statement "blacks never had a real civilization", rocky. Are you talking about American blacks or blacks in general?

 

When I talk about civilization, I don't mean groups of people living in huts, I mean kingdoms and governments. Plus Egyptians were not black Africans.

 

A lot of rap music glorifies crime and violence, but hip hop in general doesn't stem from uneducated blah blah blah. Also, when you talk about these ancient civilizations, my point is that no black civilizations have survived long enough to install these values in the people. I don't know if you understand how I am saying, I'm not good at wording things how I think them usually, but these Indian people come from a civilization that has survived thousands of years.

[Tormod]

When I talk about civilization, I don't mean groups of people living in huts, I mean kingdoms and governments. Plus Egyptians were not black Africans.

 

The Egyptians were then as today a mixture of many peoples from many cultures - a lot of them would have come from sub-Saharan Africa. Egyptian culture traces it's roots back to ancient African culture.

 

A lot of rap music glorifies crime and violence, but hip hop in general doesn't stem from uneducated blah blah blah.

 

Just like rock music, then.

 

Also, when you talk about these ancient civilizations, my point is that no black civilizations have survived long enough to install these values in the people.

 

I fail to see the real point in this line of argument. The blacks in the US surely must be considered a part of the general population, especially those who were born there. Thus they grow up in a society where the values of their peers are indeed based on democratic values?

 

One of the youngest civilisations we have is the US culture! It has lasted far shorter than most of the great cultures in the world, for example the reign of the Sumerians, the Egyptians, the Romans, the Greeks...just to mention some of the more commonly known.

[rockytriton]

Just like rock music, then.

 

Hmm, I've never really heard any rock music that glorified gang violence and commiting robberies and rapes. I guess there probably is some, but it seems to me that gangsta rap is more popular.

 

I fail to see the real point in this line of argument. The blacks in the US surely must be considered a part of the general population, especially those who were born there. Thus they grow up in a society where the values of their peers are indeed based on democratic values?

 

One of the youngest civilisations we have is the US culture! It has lasted far shorter than most of the great cultures in the world, for example the reign of the Sumerians, the Egyptians, the Romans, the Greeks...just to mention some of the more commonly known.

 

I don't know what else to say to this, like I said, the blacks here in the US don't generally come from a long history of civilization, they were taken a few hundred years ago from African tribes. Please understand that when I am talking about civilizations, I am not talking about nomadic tribes like the native americans, I am talking about kingdoms or governments. Most whites from the US come from European families which have a much older civilization. I don't know if Feynmans idea about this is true or not, it's just that it seems plausible to me. And I don't think it's racist to think that is possible. Some people tend to think that you are racist for trying to wonder the cause of racial issues instead of just agreeing with whatever the far lefties say about evil white men and corporations.

 

This sounds like it is copied straight from a KKK meeting.

 

Yea, that did sound like something right out of a David Duke speech.

[questor]

Tormod, you have a distorted and incorrect view of American society. you also are stunned and alarmed that i would utter what you perceived to be a racist comment. it is precisely that attitude that dictates the blacks as a group will not achieve a more prominent

place in America. it has become impossible to point out unpleasant truths about blacks because of comments like yours. if a problem exists, it must be confronted and dealt with, and not hidden behind people who think they are doing good by denying its existence. i have spoken truth, and your displeasure does nothing to change it. why would you sit

thousands of miles away and comment on things about which you have no direct information? if you want proof, get off your righteous tail and come to Washington, DC

where i live. i will show you in one short day why the blacks are not doing well. be sure to wear your bulletproof vest. PS, keep a copy of my post, i can prove every point.

[questor]

Tormod, while you are contemplating our racist society, why not do a little homework. go back to your crime statistics and browse through them again as to race and crime in all categories.

go to scholastic achievement tests, percent of high school graduates by race.

percent of college graduates by race.

percent of post graduate studies by race. doctoral candidates

percent illegitimate children by race

percent of one parent families by race.

see if you can find statistics or information on the drug culture. look for ''crack'' babies by race. these are babies born to mothers addicted to crack cocaine.

look for the number of Americans infected by the aids virus by race.

look for numbers of people on welfare by race.

you may find some interesting information.

[Queso]

heh, i never saw this thead...interesting.....

[Tormod]

I think questor thinks I have never been to the US. Back in my college days in Illinois I even had a black roommate from Chicago. He once told me that Hip Hop was the future of music. I laughed in his face. He he.