Vmedvil2 Posted April 8, 2019 Report Share Posted April 8, 2019 No, I don't. I think we're making entirely different assumptions here. Like I said, I don't think an electron would "feel a time slowing effect" at all. But that's because I don't think time changes to begin with.Then why do electrons slow their velocity around the atom when the parent atom is in motion? Do you see what I am getting at? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moronium Posted April 8, 2019 Report Share Posted April 8, 2019 Then why do electrons slow their velocity around the atom when the parent atom is in motion? Do you see what I am getting at? No, not quite. If you slow your velocity (speed) then you do. That just means you're traveling less distance in the same time, or that it takes you more time to travel the same distance. But how does time change? I previously used the example of slowing from 100 mph to 50 mph because I saw a cop. But, again, I can't see how that changes time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moronium Posted April 8, 2019 Report Share Posted April 8, 2019 (edited) Vic, if we get away from the esoteric mysteries of QM (which I certainly can't explain) and on familiar macroscopic terrain, how does the rate of a clock's tick affect time? Say I have a watch that always runs slow at the rate of 5 minutes for every hour. Does a slow watch change time itself? Or does it just inaccurately measure time? Has time changed, to make it run slow? Or does some other factor make it slow? Edited April 8, 2019 by Moronium Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moronium Posted April 8, 2019 Report Share Posted April 8, 2019 Has time changed, to make it run slow? Or does some other factor make it slow? To answer my own question, I would say of course not. Time doesn't have the ability to reach inside a watch and adjust the rate at which its gears move. Time is not a "thing" which can affect material objects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vmedvil2 Posted April 8, 2019 Report Share Posted April 8, 2019 (edited) Vic, if we get away from the esoteric mysteries of QM (which I certainly can't explain) and on familiar macroscopic terrain, how does the rate of a clock's tick affect time? Say I have a watch that always runs slow at the rate of 5 minutes for every hour. Does a slow watch change time itself? Or does it just inaccurately measure time? Has time changed, to make it run slow? Or does some other factor make it slow? If the watch is moving and we are talking about a clock yes the object itself the clock in this example slows down due to the Rate at which it measures time slows down, if two clocks are moving at nearly the same speed they will measure the same amount of time. The reason for this is due to length contraction of time or what you call time dilation, the length that times takes to pass has shorted just like the space dimensions, the universe in that section moves more slowly. Edited April 8, 2019 by VictorMedvil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vmedvil2 Posted April 8, 2019 Report Share Posted April 8, 2019 (edited) To answer my own question, I would say of course not. Time doesn't have the ability to reach inside a watch and adjust the rate at which its gears move. Time is not a "thing" which can affect material objects.To simplify this the Watch is curving time in the spot that it sits like a object on a blanket but the blanket is also made of time thus time is curved by the clocks weight too. It takes time longer to run around the curve. The object itself and its weight is what is curving time as a fundamental part of what the weight of the clock does to the universe. Edited April 8, 2019 by VictorMedvil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moronium Posted April 8, 2019 Report Share Posted April 8, 2019 If the watch is moving and we are talking about a clock, yes the object itself, the clock in this example, slows down. This is due to the Rate at which it measures time slows down... I changed the punctuation in your post in an attempt to understand it better. If I'm reading you right, then, yes, I agree that the clock slows down. And yes, because it has slowed down it will "measure" the amount of elapsed time between two events differently. So I agree with the substance of what you're saying. I just don't see where "time itself" comes into the picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moronium Posted April 8, 2019 Report Share Posted April 8, 2019 To simplify this the Watch is curving time in the spot that it sits like a object on a blanket but the blanket is also made of time thus time is curved by the clocks weight too. It takes time longer to run around the curve. So you're saying that time changes the rate at which clocks tick rather than vice versa? I would deny this, and don't even consider it possible. Time is simply not a tangible thing that can "curve" like a road, or expand like a balloon. Time is merely an abstract concept. It has no corporeal existence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vmedvil2 Posted April 8, 2019 Report Share Posted April 8, 2019 I changed the punctuation in your post in an attempt to understand it better. If I'm reading you right, then, yes, I agree that the clock slows down. And yes, because it has slowed down it will "measure" the amount of elapsed time between two events differently. So I agree with the substance of what you're saying. I just don't see where "time itself" comes into the picture. Well that was explained in my second post time-space is a 4 dimension blanket and it is the weight of the clock itself which curves the blanket, as the clock weights more it changes the shape of the time blanket, it takes more time for time to move around the blanket which we call proper time versus relative time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vmedvil2 Posted April 8, 2019 Report Share Posted April 8, 2019 So you're saying that time changes the rate at which clocks tick rather than vice versa? I would deny this, and don't even consider it possible. Time is simply not a tangible thing that can "curve" like a road, or expand like a balloon. Time is merely an abstract concept. It has no corporeal existence. You will learn later that proper time symboled by Tau is like the Time frame the universe it is much like your "Preferred frame" which is why I don't complete disagree with you, you can always take the time rate of the universe which is proper time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moronium Posted April 8, 2019 Report Share Posted April 8, 2019 (edited) Well that was explained in my second post time-space is a 4 dimension blanket and it is the weight of the clock itself which curves the blanket, as the clock weights more it changes the shape of the time blanket, it takes more time for time to move around the blanket which we call proper time versus relative time. That may all make sense to you, but it makes none to me. To begin with, time is not "spacetime." But beyond that, it's still just nonsense to me. Edited April 8, 2019 by Moronium Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vmedvil2 Posted April 8, 2019 Report Share Posted April 8, 2019 (edited) So you're saying that time changes the rate at which clocks tick rather than vice versa? I would deny this, and don't even consider it possible. Time is simply not a tangible thing that can "curve" like a road, or expand like a balloon. Time is merely an abstract concept. It has no corporeal existence. Well in physics Time is bound with Space into a 4 dimensional fabric what happens to space happens too to time. If space curves then so does time, if you disagree with that there is no point in arguing but that is how it was set forward in General Relativity by Einstein. Edited April 8, 2019 by VictorMedvil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vmedvil2 Posted April 8, 2019 Report Share Posted April 8, 2019 (edited) That may all make sense to you, but it makes none to me. To begin with, time is not "spacetime." But beyond that, it's still just nonsense to me. The opposite of that would be a flat space-time which would mean that Einstein is wrong but it is used with Quantum Mechanics and Maxwell's equations, the symbol for a non minowaski spacetime is the Del operator which means (d/dx)2 +(d/dy)2 +(d/dz)2, which is a change over flat space time. Edited April 8, 2019 by VictorMedvil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moronium Posted April 8, 2019 Report Share Posted April 8, 2019 (edited) Well in physics Time is bound with Space into a 4 dimensional fabric what happens to space happens too to time. If space curves then so does time, if you disagree with that there is no point in arguing but that is how it was set forward in General Relativity by Einstein. Well, I don't equate mathematical equations with "physics." Lets tick to SR and leave GR out of it, for now, OK? In Minkowski's geometrical interpretation of SR, with time being a "fourth dimension," do clocks slow down, do you think? Or is clock retardation just an "illusion" and time changes, but not clock ticking rates? Edited April 8, 2019 by Moronium Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vmedvil2 Posted April 8, 2019 Report Share Posted April 8, 2019 (edited) Well, I don't equate mathematical equations with "physics." Lets tick to SR and leave GR out of it, for now, OK? In Minkowski's geometrical interpretation of SR, do clock slow down, do you think? Or is clock retardation just an "illusion" and time changes, but not clock rates? In Minkowski Spacetime time is curved and with those curves come things like time dilation, it is simply explained when (Cdt)2 is added as a fourth dimension to the space-time metric. Edited April 8, 2019 by VictorMedvil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vmedvil2 Posted April 8, 2019 Report Share Posted April 8, 2019 Well, I don't equate mathematical equations with "physics." Lets tick to SR and leave GR out of it, for now, OK? In Minkowski's geometrical interpretation of SR, with time being a "fourth dimension," do clocks slow down, do you think? Or is clock retardation just an "illusion" and time changes, but not clock ticking rates?essentially moronium the problem you have is when Time is taken as a dimension of space in the metric, It is taken literally as apart of space and thus is not a illusion but is fundamentally apart of time and space which are unified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moronium Posted April 8, 2019 Report Share Posted April 8, 2019 The opposite of that would be a flat space-time which would mean that Einstein is wrong... Wrong when? About what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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