Terra Preta - The parent thread which started it all

[Michaelangelica]

I was wondering about the common practice of adding coffee grounds to soil. As I understand it, they can be 20-30% carbon, depending on how dark the roast. Perhaps the carbon content plays a role. For the home gardener this might be a simple way to add carbon.

You could be right. I don't know.Certainly one for Cornell Uni to experiment with.Although Coffee Grounds have a carbon-nitrogen (C-N) ratio of 20-1, this is not charcoal-carbon which Terra preta seems to need.

They are still good to use in the garden Here is some web links I found:-

.

Coffee Grounds 2 0.3 0.2 Highly acidic, best for use in alkaline soils

.http://www.ibiblio.org/london/permaculture/mailarchives/sanet2/msg00085.html

As biofuel

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:7Kf-QHFqg3cJ:www.seas.columbia.edu/earth/wtert/sofos/Yamamiya_ASME-IMECE_2003_pres.pdf+composition+of+coffee+grounds&hl=en&gl=au&ct=clnk&cd=4&client=firefox-a

In compost

http://www.newsflash.org/2003/05/si/si001535.htm

When used properly, coffee grounds can act as a green material with a

carbon-nitrogen (C-N) ratio of 20-1.

helping salty soil (This is a good use)

http://www.stansw.asn.au/ys/mcleod.htm

organic content (Coffee grounds) of the soil had a protective effect on salt toxicity to carrots.

 

Coffee grounds as fertilizer (A good gardening site too):

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/nyerges44.html

Used coffee grounds contain about two percent nitrogen, about a third of a percent of phosphoric acid, and varying amounts of potash (generally less than one percent). Analysis of coffee grounds shows that they contain many minerals, including trace minerals, carbohydrates, sugars, some vitamins, and some caffeine. They are particularly useful on those plants for which you would purchase and apply an “acid food,” such as blueberries, evergreens, azaleas, roses, camellias, avocados, and certain fruit trees.

 

We dry our coffee grounds in the oven, too. Then we scatter them lightly, as a mulch, around those plants which we feel would benefit from them. We don’t scatter them thickly when they are wet, because the coffee grounds have a tendency to get moldy.

 

The growth of plants that like or need lime (which we can provide with eggshells) can be stimulated by adding a mixture of ground-up eggshells and dried coffee grounds.

 

In Commercial Mixes

Grow Joe Fertilizer:

http://growjoeplantfood.com/coffee.html

--

PS

Just had another thought re DIY Planet Coolingthread.

If we all collected Coffee grounds from GJ's and Starbucks (who it is said have a policy to give C.G. to gardeners -yes Star an GG's are breeding here too!) we would be helping to cool the planet.

My reasoning:-

Coffee grounds otherwise go to landfill, and break down anerobically causing methane gass a major green-house gas.

(Landfills are the major source of methane)

[erich]

I've sent Dr Antal, ( "FLash Carbonization" process: http://www.hnei.hawaii.edu/bio.r3.asp#flashcarb ) the Terra preta links and asked if he has considered these Amazon Dark Soils (ADS), Here's Dr. Antal reply:

 

 

"Dear Mr. Knight: over the past seven years my colleagues and I have written at least six proposals to initiate scientific studies of terra preta here at UH. None were funded. I suggest that you carry your message to your congressional representatives. Terra preta will not be developed if we continue to follow a business as usual appraoch. Best wishes, Michael.

 

Michael J. Antal, Jr.

Coral Industries Distinguished Professor of Renewable Energy Resources

Hawaii Natural Energy Institute

School of Ocean and Earth Science and Technology (SOEST)

1680 East-West Rd., POST 109

University of Hawaii at Manoa

Honolulu, HI 96822"

 

 

 

 

Also:

Dr. Steven Hodges of Virginia Tech sent this reply:

 

 

"Erich:

I attended some of the sessions at the World Congress of Soil Science on Terra Preta and had perused Dr. Lehmann's page at Cornell early last spring. We do have ongoing work on both biomass production for biorenewable fuels and the use of pyrolysis here at Va Tech (biological systems engineering). Our nutrient management specialist, Dr. Rory Maguire will be working with them to explore the use of the "by-product" char as their production models increase in scale to the point that we have enough product to work with.

While overall this looks like something that could help us from an energy standpoint, in the "Soil" scheme of things, there are some down sides of pyrolysis/char utilization. Significant amount of N are lost from the biomass, resulting in a very low N content in the char. When applied to soil, this can upset carbon to nitrogen balance to the point that microbial populations are shocked, and crop yields are significantly reduced if not carefully managed. In addition, the fine ash needs to be incorporated into the soil via tillage, putting it in conflict with no-till or reduced tillage systems in crops - a practice which also helps sequester carbon and has many other environmental benefits. Bottom line - this is something we are aware of and it is on our research agenda.

 

Thanks for the information and the inquiry.

 

Steven "

 

 

 

After a brief search of Charcoal Wholesalers, The best price so far, for Ag-Grade Charcoal is, trucked from Missouri, $225/ton delivered 900 miles to Virginia, $125/ton at the Charcoal yard,

 

 

 

We need a grand convergence:

In academia; Engineering, agronomist, soil geologist,anthropologist, bio-chemist, mycologist, zoologist ..............................

 

In the Public sector; waste managers, Extension agents, Environmental engineers, Energy Policy makers,........................................

 

In the private Sector; corporate farms, fossil fuel generators, small farmers, and the few charcoal makers left (seems mostly in Missouri )

[Michaelangelica]

I am not sure I understand

Dr. Steven Hodges of Virginia Tech reply:

 

It is sad for the Race (Homo Sapiens) that they cannot as a group respond to new ideas in universal fashion.

 

Do the cockroaches have stock options??

 

 

A Spanish? link

http://midier.net/agro/TerraPreta.html

[erich]

Yes ..I am forming up a post to him with questions about his "microbial populations are shocked" statment.

 

 

Here is the GOOGLE translation, first time I've used it, doesn't seem to help that much:

 

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fmidier.net%2Fagro%2FTerraPreta.html&langpair=es%7Cen&hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

[maikeru]

I think that the fact that charcoal is so stable makes it a good option for current farming or gardening methods that include tillage. The charcoal may capture gases released from the soil if organic material is aerobically or anaerobically degraded into methane, carbon dioxide, or various nitrogenous gases.

 

I also think Dr. Hodges has a point about microbial population shock due to low N levels, but microbes can repopulate rapidly given the right conditions or enough time. In the case of terra preta, it seems that soil microbes and fungi thrive due to numerous reasons. But there is a reason why terra preta was amended with kitchen waste, bones, manure, etc. Charcoal alone doesn't do much, as I've noticed from experimenting with my indoor herb garden. Seeds don't seem to like to germinate in a soil too high in charcoal content (I tried some basil, thyme, and marjoram in a 70 or 80% powdered charcoal and potting soil mix, and I got a few weak seedlings which died a few days later; quite the contrast to my other ones growing vigorously in 20-40% charcoal).

 

BTW, I want to let you guys know that you've made a terra-preta gardener out of me over the last couple months as I've lurked on this forum and in particular this thread. Black is the new green.

[erich]

Welcome Brother Meikeru:

 

Eprida's Ecoss fertilizer would seem to address this problem.

 

It sounds like the way you can sour a soil or stunt a compost pile thru N depletion, but that is the result of to much undigested cellulose, I thought that char was just the "bones" of that cellulose, all cooked out, ?

 

Also I want to asK Dr Hodges about the use of modern soil amendments like: Time release fertilizers, local mass produced Compost, and Fungi Innoculants.

 

What I want is a recipe to spread and till.

Our fields were put to the plow relentlessly until 25 years ago. A little tilling now , for the prospect of these benefits, to get TP into the first 8 inches seems worth disruption of the soil horizons.

I think of it as urban renewal , but with really good public housing.

 

 

 

A Reply from KingsFord , made my day, :

 

"Dear Mr. Knight,

 

Thank you for contacting us about Kingsford BBQ Bag Single Use Charcoal Briquets. We always appreciate hearing from our consumers.

 

We have received your email regarding the use of Terra Preta soil technology. We are glad that you think high enough of our company to want to assist us in finding alternate methods of producing charcoal. I have forwarded all of the information that you sent on to the appropriate department.

 

Again, thank you for contacting us.

 

Sincerely,

 

Lee Summers

 

 

 

Consumer Response Representative

Consumer Services

[Michaelangelica]

Welcome Brother Meikeru:

Interesting experiment.

I wonder if the charcoal had a light dose of liquid fertiliser this would make any difference? There may not have been enough aeration of the roots either with fine charcoal?

Eprida's Ecoss fertilizer would seem to address this problem.

 

No where does anyone suggest that charcoal should replace fertiliser. Fertiliser and organic matter, including fish, seem all part of the mix.

They do say that fertiliser requirements are reduced in year(s?) following amendment and water use is decreased by up to 17%

Charcoal is not going to tie up N ! wood and sawdust do

and where does the ash come in? Wood ash is a different ball-game altogether.

Microbial communities are going to be best served by organic matter and organic fertilisers.

So what the hell is Dr Hodges on about? Was he awake during the lecture?

 

Ii have used Osmocote and other time release fertilisers in a nursey situation. I liked them because they mimicked natural fertilisers and remained in the pot and so did not pollute local rivers etc. They fed the plant for some time after leaving the nursery and so the plants survived New Gardeners well.

I imagine the beauty of charcoal is that it would stop fertiliser run-off if you used liquid fertilisers (?)

 

On a personal note I have finally found a charcoal manufacturer (hardwood too!) up the coast. The bad news is that it will cost me as much in postage as the charcoal:(

[maikeru]

Welcome Brother Meikeru:

 

Eprida's Ecoss fertilizer would seem to address this problem.

 

Hmm, maybe I'll have to take a look at that.

 

It sounds like the way you can sour a soil or stunt a compost pile thru N depletion, but that is the result of to much undigested cellulose, I thought that char was just the "bones" of that cellulose, all cooked out, ?

 

Also I want to asK Dr Hodges about the use of modern soil amendments like: Time release fertilizers, local mass produced Compost, and Fungi Innoculants.

 

Another gardening forum I've been looking at says the same about stunting a compost pile through adding wood shavings, because of the low N problem. You know, what I'm thinking now is that charcoal might have a tendency to tie up some N as well, if it's going to be holding and then releasing nutrients. But this may not be a problem in the outdoors, because the charcoal can soak up nitrogen from other sources besides fertilizer. I think that rainwater contains a certain amount of dissolved nitrogen in it, and there are plenty of N-fixing bacteria and plants (legumes, mainly) that would be able to naturally restock the soil N. Unfortunately, my indoor herb garden doesn't have access to these natural N sources.

 

What I want is a recipe to spread and till.

Our fields were put to the plow relentlessly until 25 years ago. A little tilling now , for the prospect of these benefits, to get TP into the first 8 inches seems worth disruption of the soil horizons.

I think of it as urban renewal , but with really good public housing.

 

Just wondering, but you mention fields...do you own a farm or quite a bit of acreage? Sounds like terra preta would definitely benefit your situation, if that's the case. I'm planning to give terra preta a test-run in a new garden next spring, if I can find a sufficient source of powdered charcoal or biochar (better yet if I could use Eprida's ready-made stuff). I've been making my own powdered charcoal from lump wood charcoal, but it's back-breaking to crush up enough to put in my containers. I can't imagine doing that for a garden.

 

Would be great if Kingsford got in on the act.

[maikeru]

Interesting experiment.

I wonder if the charcoal had a light dose of liquid fertiliser this would make any difference? There may not have been enough aeration of the roots either with fine charcoal?

 

The liquid fertilizer might've made a difference. I wouldn't be able to test now. I took the pot and added some more peat moss and potting soil to it, to bring the charcoal content down to like 30-40%, and the basil, thyme, and marjoram in there now seem to be loving it just like their friends in the other containers.

 

No where does anyone suggest that charcoal should replace fertiliser. Fertiliser and organic matter, including fish, seem all part of the mix.

They do say that fertiliser requirements are reduced in year(s?) following amendment and water use is decreased by up to 17%

Charcoal is not going to tie up N ! wood and sawdust do

and where does the ash come in? Wood ash is a different ball-game altogether.

Microbial communities are going to be best served by organic matter and organic fertilisers.

 

I agree. Charcoal isn't a replacement for fertilizer. I wasn't impressed with the charcoal at first. It didn't seem to make much of a difference in the time it took for the plants to sprout or their greenness. A couple things have changed over the last two months. It seems as the soil has had some time to "settle" and get a microbial ecosystem going (I've noticed a lot of differently colored and shaped fungi decaying the natural fertilizers I put in, like bone and blood meal, dried leaves, coffee grounds, seaweed, etc.) the plants grow more and more vigorously, and my thyme and basil are dark and lush, though they're overcrowded.

 

Then about 3 weeks ago, I found my basil growing so quickly that I think they exhausted the soil N and started to turn light green. I bought some MiracleGro fertilizer to keep them alive for a few days until I could figure out exactly what was going on and to see if I needed to add more natural fertilizer. And what I noticed in the next few days after fertilizer application was nothing short of a revelation. It looked like the plants went through an overnight growth spurt. I didn't expect that. So, yeah, charcoal is doing something for the plants, and works best in combination with other elements. I'm trying to keep to organic as much as possible for cooking reasons (since these herbs will be finding their way into some Italian and Greek dishes soon) and for the added organic matter to the soil. Good soil always has a lot of organic matter in it.

 

I imagine the beauty of charcoal is that it would stop fertiliser run-off if you used liquid fertilisers (?)

 

Another advantage is the soil doesn't have much of a smell. I think the charcoal zaps the odors. Even with the funky stuff I add, including fish juice (just gave some to my basil two nights ago), the soil and the containers remain agreeable.

 

On a personal note I have finally found a charcoal manufacturer (hardwood too!) up the coast. The bad news is that it will cost me as much in postage as the charcoal:(

 

If the charcoal is cheap, it might be a good buy, despite the costly postage. I've been making mine from Royal Oak lump charcoal ($5 for 10 lbs), but given the option, I'd rather just buy fine or powdered charcoal, even if it was much more costly, so long as it's not some of the prices I've seen on the net like $30 for 2 lb of fine charcoal. That was on E-bay. Oy. I've found a charcoal place in Arizona that I want to contact to see what their prices are. According to their website, they deal in horticultural charcoal and supposedly fine and powdered varieties.

[Michaelangelica]

Hmm, maybe I'll have to take a look at that.

Another gardening forum I've been looking at says the same about stunting a compost pile through adding wood shavings, because of the low N problem.

Would be great if Kingsford got in on the act.

 

Fascinating posts maikeu- Thanks.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to maikeru again."

So good to have people experimenting and looking at the results.

 

I don't have any proof but I don't feel that charcoal locks up N.

Sawdust etc is breaking down and in the process needs N for the process . Charcoal is stable for maybe 100 years + (?). It does not break down in the same way as sawdust/wood etc. I think micro flora and fertiliser lives in little charcoal Bucky balls" (???) very happily

 

Amazing your experience with Miracle Grow and basil (have yet to plant my summer basil plants - most nurseries are in deep depression with current water restrictions) I like miracle grow despite trying to be organic But I can't see how plastic pots and potting mixes are very organic/natural anyway.

(I mainly grow herbs and useful plants except for some Roses for my wife!).

 

 

I will look again at postage costs of charcoal; thanks

Michael

[erich]

"(I mainly grow herbs and useful plants except for some Roses for my wife!)."

 

OOps, sorry, I just assumed from the picture:

 

http://forums.permaculture.org.au/viewtopic.php?t=1775&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=terra+preta&start=45&sid=723354a420944c744e31373d30cec92b

[maikeru]

Be careful of one of the posts on that forum by floot linking to a recipe for "horn clay." I read the horn clay article. I'm sure it's good stuff, especially for plants, but not because of spiritual vibes that resonate from lime or silica or horn. More because of the improvements in soil's nutrition, microbial ecosystem and dynamics, and microstructure. "Biodynamic agriculture" appears something more like alchemy. I think with biochar and terra preta, we can understand some, if not quite a bit, of what is going on through logical and scientific principles. I have read that clay is good at improving ion exchange, water retention, and binding organic molecules. Charcoal seems to possess these properties and more. No magic or special lime or silica mixtures required.

 

Hmm, can't post the Wikipedia link to "biodynamic agriculture." Still a few posts away...

[Michaelangelica]

"(I mainly grow herbs and useful plants except for some Roses for my wife!)."

 

OOps, sorry, I just assumed from the picture:

 

http://forums.permaculture.org.au/viewtopic.php?t=1775&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=terra+preta&start=45&sid=723354a420944c744e31373d30cec92b

No apology necessary.

Being androgynous (?!) is interesting.

I hadn't intended for the name to be so bi ? sexual

 

I am a feminist with two daughters.

 

It is fascinating to see how people put me down, in web arguments, in sexual ways because they think I am a woman.

It gives me an insight into what they have to cope with daily.

I like Buffey.

(I look EXACTLY like my hypography Ativar)

Michael

[Michaelangelica]

Be careful of one of the posts on that forum by floot linking to a recipe for "horn clay." I read the horn clay article. I'm sure it's good stuff, especially for plants, but not because of spiritual vibes that resonate from lime or silica or horn. More because of the improvements in soil's nutrition, microbial ecosystem and dynamics, and microstructure. "Biodynamic agriculture" appears something more like alchemy.

Hmm, can't post the Wikipedia link to "biodynamic agriculture." Still a few posts away...

"Biodynamic agriculture" appears something more like alchemy.

Yes,

I have read about this. You stuff a old cow horn with manure and bury it for a time.

Then dig it up, mix it with water, and sprinkle it over your garden/fields.

 

Perhaps they are helping microbial life in the soil????

(I find it hard to believe too)

BUT

Stranger things have happened!!

Old Organic Gardeners used to collect sick, half-dead or dead caterpillars (that look like black, small, empty, collapsed condoms -Well they do!!) then stick the caterpillars in warm water with sugar and let them ferment for a week or two. Can you imagine it!! No wonder they were ridiculed!

They then spread this gungy stuff around the garden.!

It turns out the Old Organic Gardeners where making a bacterial culture of Bacillus thungerensis a bacteria that kills caterpillars.

You can buy it commercially here under the trade name "Dipel"

 

What the Dipel manufactures don't tell you is that once you have used Dipel in your garden you can then make it in the above way and never have to buy Dipel again.

 

Erich

Who wrote this riddle; you?

http://www.hnei.hawaii.edu/biocarbon.asp

[Turtle]

While the 'dark soils' idea has some merit for improving the garden, this idea that it is a means to change climate is without foundation. Moreover, it didn't keep the Amazonian people who employed it from disappearing. :hyper:

[Michaelangelica]

this idea that it is a means to change climate is without foundation.

Your reasons, evidence, links?

 

Cornell Uni scientists say that whidespread adoption of Terra preta farming could sequester our yearly world output of CO2.

While this may not stop global warming it is a good start (See links in this thread)

Moreover, it didn't keep the Amazonian people who employed it from disappearing. :hyper:

'Charcoal' farming did not stop European diseases like smallpox etc brought to the Amazon by the Spanish.

Until then it was a thriving community of maybe 10 million.

A population number which many modern scientists/archaeologists thought impossible to support on rain leeched tropical soils until Terra preta was discovered..

[Turtle]

Your reasons, evidence, links?

Find those in all the threads we have going on global warming; my assessment is that global warming is a natural cycle of the planetary mechanics kind. It is the height of arrogance to claim you can effect a positive change in a system you can't even fully explain.:hyper:

 

 

'Charcoal' farming did not stop European diseases like smallpox etc brought to the Amazon by the Spanish.

Until then it was a thriving community of maybe 10 million.

A population number which many modern scientists/archaeologists thought impossible to support on rain leeched tropical soils until Terra preta was discovered..

 

This is not the case as presented in the program that prompted this discussion. Post #9

The title & first half of the hour long show focussed on a 1542 Spanish explorer's account of wide spred populations on the Amazon & tributaries.

The early Spanish explorers boated up the Amazon & recorded the villages and when later explorers came decades later to kill off and rob the natives they were already gone.