Before the Universe

[Bobby]

There is a Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy that states that mass and energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Many of us know this, but few have thought of what this really means. If energy cannot be created, then it always was and if energy cannot be destroyed, it always will be. This sounds simple enough, however, if there is energy in our Universe and energy cannot be created, where did it come from?

 

There is a thing in geology that says "the present is the key to the past". This means that if you're looking at the Grand Canyon and wondering how it came to be, look around the present and watch how water cuts a channel through the land. Using this as it relates to this post, we observe large amounts of energy around and surrounding things we believe to be Black Holes. Additionally, if our Universe is closed, meaning there is enough mass to stop the expansion, then by definition our Universe is a Black Hole.

 

It is a mind wrentching concept that there was no beginning. There may have been a beginning to our Universe, but there was never a beginning for energy, if so, energy was

created and the Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy says energy can not be created.

 

Bringing the concepts of NO BEGINNING and Black Holes together seems to suggest that our Universe may very well be a Black Hole in some other Universe. AND, if our Universe is a child of another Universe, there is no reason to believe that our parent Universe is not a child to some other Universe.

 

Mind boggling it may be, but IF the Law of Conservation of mass and energy is true THEN

There can not have been a beginning

There can not be an end

There can not be a limit

[EWright]

There is a Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy that states that mass and energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Many of us know this, but few have thought of what this really means. If energy cannot be created, then it always was and if energy cannot be destroyed, it always will be. This sounds simple enough, however, if there is energy in our Universe and energy cannot be created, where did it come from?

 

There is a thing in geology that says "the present is the key to the past". This means that if you're looking at the Grand Canyon and wondering how it came to be, look around the present and watch how water cuts a channel through the land. Using this as it relates to this post, we observe large amounts of energy around and surrounding things we believe to be Black Holes. Additionally, if our Universe is closed, meaning there is enough mass to stop the expansion, then by definition our Universe is a Black Hole.

 

It is a mind wrentching concept that there was no beginning. There may have been a beginning to our Universe, but there was never a beginning for energy, if so, energy was

created and the Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy says energy can not be created.

 

Bringing the concepts of NO BEGINNING and Black Holes together seems to suggest that our Universe may very well be a Black Hole in some other Universe. AND, if our Universe is a child of another Universe, there is no reason to believe that our parent Universe is not a child to some other Universe.

 

Mind boggling it may be, but IF the Law of Conservation of mass and energy is true THEN

There can not have been a beginning

There can not be an end

There can not be a limit

 

The answers like in the density of the matter/energy... or lack there of... for both beginning and end... either of which could be the other.

[Bobby]

The answers like in the density of the matter/energy... or lack there of... for both beginning and end... either of which could be the other.

 

 

I'm not following you here. As far as I know there is a specific amount of energy and mass in our Universe. The density would certainly have much to do with how our Universe works, but I don't see how it would effect the beginning or end.

Reagrds, BP

[EWright]

I'm not following you here. As far as I know there is a specific amount of energy and mass in our Universe. The density would certainly have much to do with how our Universe works, but I don't see how it would effect the beginning or end.

Reagrds, BP

 

Theories such as big bang big crunch require an "infinitely" dense starting/ending point; a singularity. Brane theory and an open universe require in which energy begins/ends spread "infinitely" thin. String theory, which is tied to Brane theory suggests that the vibration of the fabric of space led to a 'drag' effect that resulted in variations in the vibrations, which in turn led to different subatomic particles, etc (I'm sure this is a very rough description, as I do not have a strong understanding of this theory). String theory requires or allows for 10 spacial dimensions plus the dimension of time, though we only experence four including time. Personally I do like the idea of universes spawning from parent universes and see little reason why this isn't an acceptable theory as well.

[Bobby]

Theories such as big bang big crunch require an "infinitely" dense starting/ending point; a singularity. Brane theory and an open universe require in which energy begins/ends spread "infinitely" thin. String theory, which is tied to Brane theory suggests that the vibration of the fabric of space led to a 'drag' effect that resulted in variations in the vibrations, which in turn led to different subatomic particles, etc (I'm sure this is a very rough description, as I do not have a strong understanding of this theory). String theory requires or allows for 10 spacial dimensions plus the dimension of time, though we only experence four including time. Personally I do like the idea of universes spawning from parent universes and see little reason why this isn't an acceptable theory as well.

 

 

We have a different idea about infinitely dense, but the main idea was what preceeded our Universe.

[EWright]

We have a different idea about infinitely dense, but the main idea was what preceeded our Universe.

 

Nothing or everything... the universe is all that there is and ever was.

[Bobby]

Nothing or everything... the universe is all that there is and ever was.

 

 

You ignore a few laws here, including the Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy. I doubt that any professional astronomer or cosmologist would agree with you. However, I often change my opinions when I get more information. Do you have a basis for your statement?

[EWright]

You ignore a few laws here, including the Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy. I doubt that any professional astronomer or cosmologist would agree with you. However, I often change my opinions when I get more information. Do you have a basis for your statement?

 

Not agree? They're the ones who say so. Either everything was compacted into one small starting point (see big bang theory) or everything was stretched out 'uniformly' in to seemingly nothingness (see brane theory). End predictions result in one of the two same phenomena but in reverse.

[Bobby]

Not agree? They're the ones who say so. Either everything was compacted into one small starting point (see big bang theory) or everything was stretched out 'uniformly' in to seemingly nothingness (see brane theory). End predictions result in one of the two same phenomena but in reverse.

 

 

The Big Bang does not require a singularity. Prior to 10^-43 seconds the rules of quantum mechanics goverened and we have no good idea what might have happened before this. After 10^-43 the rules of relativity took over. We still don't know very much about the early universe. Various models lead to the present universe, but models and theories are just that, they are models and theories, not facts.

[Guadalupe]

Hi Bobby. Ask yourself, if we were to go back far enough to find where our universe first originated from, the search would not end there. We find ourselves asking, “And what is beyond that and beyond that and beyond that and so on and so forth. So, to stop this repetitive asking, to quote a phrase, “The Buck Stops Here”, will allow us to finally see what was responsible for the creation of our universe, and that would have to be something or someone with no beginning and no end.

 

I did some searching and found, by definition, the word God means the creator of the universe, one with no beginning and no end. If we think about it. Who better than to have been responsible in the creation of that one spark of energy that gave birth to our universe. Just something to think about. :circle:

[Bobby]

Hi Bobby. Ask yourself, if we were to go back far enough to find where our universe first originated from, the search would not end there. We find ourselves asking, “And what is beyond that and beyond that and beyond that and so on and so forth. So, to stop this repetitive asking, to quote a phrase, “The Buck Stops Here”, will allow us to finally see what was responsible for the creation of our universe, and that would have to be something or someone with no beginning and no end.

 

 

 

Indeed the search would go on. My post was based almost entirely on the logical extension of the Law of Conservation of Energy and Mass. I used the geology example only to show the idea of our Universe being a Black Hole in another Universe was not the ravings of a madman.

 

 

I did some searching and found, by definition, the word God means the creator of the universe, one with no beginning and no end. If we think about it. Who better than to have been responsible in the creation of that one spark of energy that gave birth to our universe. Just something to think about. :circle:

 

 

 

I'm not a big fan of religion, but I believe there is something like this in the Bible and probably most other religious books. "There was never a time when God did not live in His kingdom."

[EWright]

I'm not a big fan of religion, but I believe there is something like this in the Bible and probably most other religious books. "There was never a time when God did not live in His kingdom."

 

As with our universe... perhaps there was simply not a time before that time. And yes, I'm an avid believer.

[UncleAl]

if there is energy in our Universe and energy cannot be created, where did it come from?

Near as anybody can tell the algebraic sum of all matter, energy, and fields in the visible universe is exactly zero. Welcome to the quantum fluctuation. If you want it another way, the rules were different before reality appeared because it wasn't a closed system obeying equilibrium thermodynamics (Ilya Prigogine, for instance). If you want it a third way, General Relativity has no global conservation rules. Local conservation of mass-energy is a consequence of the homogeneity of time plus Noether's theorem. (Noether was a girl.) Rigorous conservation breaks down at scales beyond about a light year.

[Bobby]

As with our universe... perhaps there was simply not a time before that time. And yes, I'm an avid believer.

 

 

The nature of time seems to be a matter of who is doing the talking. Since the primary forces in our Universe seems to be electric charge and gravity, I would guess that time has something to do with one or the other (perhaps both). I was not the one who wrote the Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy, but I suspect that energy is that thing that we know of as energy, and if it must be conserved. Whereever our Universe came from would seem to be made of the same stuff.

 

BTW Do you recall the name of the guy with the razor?

[EWright]

Whereever our Universe came from would seem to be made of the same stuff.

 

Not necessarily... remember, there was NONE of this "stuff" between the period of the bb and the cbm.

[Bobby]

Not necessarily... remember, there was NONE of this "stuff" between the period of the bb and the cbm.

 

What is the CBM?

[EWright]

What is the CBM?

 

Sorry, CMB.