Designer Humans

[Lancewen]

I believe I see your point. Where do we have the right to judge what is wrong or right to create, versus what would be the impact on society are we to decline an artificial, benevolent evolution for the sake of a possibly errant social mandate.

 

Truthfully I don't think our society is up for it, considering the level of prejudice that exist today over the slight differences amongst humans, making changes that would create greater differences seems to be a bad idea no matter how beneficial they might be for our species as a whole. I only suggest it as a means to allow humans to live off world and help our species migrate to other planetary environments.

[HydrogenBond]

The way I would prefer see designer humans is using a different method. This other approach is connected to post transcription modification. The idea is to conserve the DNA, as is, but modify the output of genes by modifying the mRNA. This maintains a solid natural DNA anchor, but allows us to reprogram the meaning of genes.

[Lancewen]

The way I would prefer see designer humans is using a different method. This other approach is connected to post transcription modification. The idea is to conserve the DNA, as is, but modify the output of genes by modifying the mRNA. This maintains a solid natural DNA anchor, but allows us to reprogram the meaning of genes.

 

I'm not sure I'm clear on what you said, but it seems to me if you reprogram the meaning of genes which make up the DNA, you are changing the DNA. Also, when I talk about changing DNA, I'm talking about changes that will be passed on to the next generation. How does what you said apply to that level of change?

[CraigD]

The way I would prefer see designer humans is using a different method. This other approach is connected to post transcription modification. The idea is to conserve the DNA, as is, but modify the output of genes by modifying the mRNA. This maintains a solid natural DNA anchor, but allows us to reprogram the meaning of genes.

I'm not sure I'm clear on what you said, but it seems to me if you reprogram the meaning of genes which make up the DNA, you are changing the DNA. Also, when I talk about changing DNA, I'm talking about changes that will be passed on to the next generation. How does what you said apply to that level of change?

Since DNA to RNA transcription and RNA post-transcription modification are well-defined biological term (part of the provocatively named “central dogma of molecular biology”), I think it’s OK for me to answer for HBond.

 

Single stranded mRNA is transcribed from sequences of DNA by the RNA polymerase enzyme. In all eukaryote cells (eg: snails and humans, but not bacteria), the RNA is processed in various ways before it translated into the coded-for protein by ribosomes. This processing happens after transcription and before translation, so is called post-transcriptional modification.

 

However, HBond, I see a catch in your idea. The various mRNA-editing factors that perform PTMs are themselves coded for in nuclear DNA. To modify or create new ones, you’d have to modify or insert genes in this DNA. So your approach wouldn’t truly “maintain a solid natural DNA anchor”, but rather alter coding regions less directly involved in the expression of a particular protein than the gene that directly code for it. I can’t think of any reason this couldn’t work, but it doesn’t seem to “conserve the DNA” more than a direct approach.

 

Also, PTM appears to me to play more of an efficiency enhancing and regulatory role (eg: changing the protein expressed by the same gene in cells of different kinds) than of genetic information storage role.

 

What you’re describing seems to me analogous to modifying a photocopier to produce change some words between the original and a copy of a printed document, rather than just changing the original document and running it through the un-modified copier. It could work, but seems more complicated and trouble prone.

[CraigD]

Nice post, I like how you tied in with the SciFi novels, all of which make you think.

As no doubt is obvious, I like SF, and apply it a lot to non-fictional science. Good SF is, I think, effectively very speculative science, and can play an important role in the scientific process.

 

That in mind, I can’t resist replying to

I only suggest it as a means to allow humans to live off world and help our species migrate to other planetary environments.

with another SF reference, Jack Chalker’s 1986-1988 “Rings of the Master” soft SF quartology. Key to the plot of these books is an advanced machine that can automatically transform an normal adult human into a true-breeding form ideally suited for a particular planet, but do so only once per person, making their choice of species and planet permanent.

 

Chalker’s books are soft SF, essentially space opera, the fictional technology serving almost purely to advance the stories’ plots rather than speculate about possible science, but I found them well written, fun, and wonderfully imaginative. Chalker was (regrettably, he died at the age of 60 in 2005), IMHO, an underappreciated gem of the soft SF genre, his many books worthy of a wider renown than the currently have.

[sigurdV]

Other than eliminating genetic defects that cause disease, I am vehemently opposed to alteration or manipulation of the human genome. Such action is unethical and should be illegal. Altering the genome to tailor make the human form amounts to creating a slave race destined from day one to fit a particular task.

 

I dislike the thought that you or anybody will forbid me to do whatever i want with my life and my body.

 

Making me a slave, claiming its ethical and for my own good...

[Lancewen]

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fahrquad, on 07 October 2011 - 10:27 AM, said:

 

Other than eliminating genetic defects that cause disease, I am vehemently opposed to alteration or manipulation of the human genome. Such action is unethical and should be illegal. Altering the genome to tailor make the human form amounts to creating a slave race destined from day one to fit a particular task.

 

I dislike the thought that you or anybody will forbid me to do whatever i want with my life and my body.

 

Making me a slave, claiming its ethical and for my own good...

 

sigurdV I'm not clear if you are agreeing with fahrquad or not. But I can try and make my position a bit clearer. First I believe it's only a matter of time until we (humans) will have the knowledge and skill to genetically alter humans. The decision to actually do so is another matter and whether we ever do it or not may depend more on the circumstances of the time that decision is made.

 

If the humans of the future think the need for the changes are necessary say for the survival of the human race, how would that affect the morality of the decision? When you think about it. it will mostly be a choice the parents will have to make. As the child never has a choice about being born or not. In some countries if you are born to be king simply because of who your parents are, you are in a very tough spot. One could almost say you are a slave to your situation.

 

Now what would induce potential parents to want to have an altered child? I would think the government would have to make guarantees the new family would find beneficial to their future and the future of their kids. It always comes down to the luck of the draw as to who your parents are. After that your on your own, good, bad or indifferent.

[sigurdV]

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1 sigurdV I'm not clear if you are agreeing with fahrquad or not.

2 But I can try and make my position a bit clearer.

First I believe it's only a matter of time until we (humans) will have the knowledge and skill to genetically alter humans.

3 The decision to actually do so is another matter and whether we ever do it or not may depend more on the circumstances of the time that decision is made.

 

4 If the humans of the future think the need for the changes are necessary say for the survival of the human race, how would that affect the morality of the decision?

5 When you think about it. it will mostly be a choice the parents will have to make. As the child never has a choice about being born or not. 6 In some countries if you are born to be king simply because of who your parents are, you are in a very tough spot. One could almost say you are a slave to your situation.

 

7 Now what would induce potential parents to want to have an altered child? I would think the government would have to make guarantees the new family would find beneficial to their future and the future of their kids. It always comes down to the luck of the draw as to who your parents are.

8 After that your on your own, good, bad or indifferent.

 

1 I vehemently oppose. (No personal grudge)

 

2 I understood you the first time. And i tend to agree.

 

3 yup

 

4 Ill check with G E Moore before my honest answer.

 

5 Mmmm... thats why i hate the thought of legislating away freedom.

 

6 ditto

 

7 As to psychological or sociological mechanisms Im at a loss of words.

 

8 I think this is the best part of your post :)

 

PS: I guess most texts of mine

are somewhat obscure...

Thanx for noticing one!

 

PPS: How soon before I can buy a brain for my G# ?

[Lancewen]

1 I vehemently oppose. (No personal grudge)

 

2 I understood you the first time. And i tend to agree.

 

3 yup

 

4 Ill check with G E Moore before my honest answer.

 

5 Mmmm... thats why i hate the thought of legislating away freedom.

 

6 ditto

 

7 As to psychological or sociological mechanisms Im at a loss of words.

 

8 I think this is the best part of your post :)

 

PS: I guess most texts of mine

are somewhat obscure...

Thanx for noticing one!

 

PPS: How soon before I can buy a brain for my G# ?

 

I have no idea, maybe you should consider getting a new G#. (Just kidding) The process would have to start with new parents wanting to help and also gain whatever benefit was being offered at the time. Anyway I'm not saying it's right or wrong and personally I don't think I could ever produce a modified child by choice. But I'm betting there are many that would be willing.

[sigurdV]

I have no idea, maybe you should consider getting a new G#. (Just kidding) The process would have to start with new parents wanting to help and also gain whatever benefit was being offered at the time. Anyway I'm not saying it's right or wrong and personally I don't think I could ever produce a modified child by choice. But I'm betting there are many that would be willing.

 

The first reaction as a parent is to protect for errors ...

 

But giving positive advantages seems not so bad ...And nearly obligatory if your neighbours are into it...Would you let your kid be the only ugly and stupid kid on the block?

[Lancewen]

The first reaction as a parent is to protect for errors ...

 

But giving positive advantages seems not so bad ...And nearly obligatory if your neighbours are into it...Would you let your kid be the only ugly and stupid kid on the block?

 

I think a like minded neighborhood would be mandatory, because modified kids would need to grow up with their own kind and schooling them all together seems like a no brainer. But I know I wouldn't do it if the kid couldn't be much smarter than me.

[sigurdV]

I think a like minded neighborhood would be mandatory, because modified kids would need to grow up with their own kind and schooling them all together seems like a no brainer. But I know I wouldn't do it if the kid couldn't be much smarter than me.

I defend your right to make the decision.

 

BTW I invite you to the tread Global Warming :)

 

(I have not checked if you are already there.)

[sigurdV]

edited out copy

Edited April 21, 2012 by sigurdV

[Lancewen]

I defend your right to make the decision.

 

BTW I invite you to the tread Global Warming :)

 

(I have not checked if you are already there.)

 

Don't think I've seen that one yet. One thing that helps is for you to post the link when you make an invite. If you want to point to a single post, you can click on the post number then copy and paste the link. I will go look for it, but keep what I said in mind for future invites or if you just want to refer to a post in another topic.

[sigurdV]

Don't think I've seen that one yet. One thing that helps is for you to post the link when you make an invite. If you want to point to a single post, you can click on the post number then copy and paste the link. I will go look for it, but keep what I said in mind for future invites or if you just want to refer to a post in another topic.

 

Good advice! I wish I was good in taking advice :)

 

Anyway: In there a quarrel developed between Turtle and DrC:

 

Turtle being rude and DrC being evasive. He thinks he trapped Turtle:

 

Claiming T failed to recognize the Liar Paradox.

 

Perhaps Im gossiping... but C:s behaviour seems indeed evasive.

 

I challenged his own understanding of the Liar Paradox

 

and he decided to stick to global warming ;)

Edited April 21, 2012 by sigurdV