What makes Creationism so hard to believe in, and evolution so easy?

[Smokinjoe9]

Hey Joe! - its a sea! The floods still there!:shrug:

There have been many, many breakthroughs when it comes to proving the Bible is actually historical(some of the events are real). I am amazed at the effort being put forth to find the facts they are finding. It is also really cool to see the old civilizations, buildings, utensils, fishing boats, mummies etc...

[BEAKER]

There have been many, many breakthroughs when it comes to proving the Bible is actually historical(some of the events are real). I am amazed at the effort being put forth to find the facts they are finding. It is also really cool to see the old civilizations, buildings, utensils, fishing boats, mummies etc...

Totally! - I'm with you buddy. From what I've read about archeological discoveries of this kind, they really diddn't have to put forth a lot of effort to find some of these things. They were just there where they were supposed to be. Amen.:shrug:

[Buffy]

How did the mountains form?....where did they come from? how did they get into a lined patern? how come when you put togeather the continents, they all kinda have a puzzle patern ..

All these are from plate tectonics. All the conenents are floating around on plates that mash into each other. We've got satellite, ground movement and other measurements that tell us exactly how fast these plates are moving, so except for those people who do not believe that time is a constant, we know that they work this way. When these plates mash into eachother, they form mountain ranges that are all aligned. The Himalayas are being formed by the Indian plate mashing into the Asian plate, and we can even observe Mount Everest getting taller! Other ranges are formed by volcanism, like the Hawaiian Islands that sit over a hot spot underneath the Pacific Ocean, and you can see that the oldest islands (e.g. Kauai, although the chain actually goes all the way up to Midway Island), has undergone heavy erosion, while the newest island--the Big Island--still has the active volcanos, and there are new islands forming that have not reached the surface south east of there. Again this is not a guess: we're watching this happening *now*. An inch here and an inch there and in a few million years you have a pretty big mountain range!

 

On the other hand it *could* be angels moving things around magically...

 

If you look at the area in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, you'll see a gigantic ridge going right down the middle, that is volcanically active an is pushing the plates apart the ridge happens to be exactly the same shape as the land masses. If we look back far enough at fossils found on opposing continents (eastern South America and western Africa), we see the same species on both sides.

 

On the other hand it could just be a shape that God thought was really pretty....

when flattened how much more land would be available?

There'd be less, in fact you could possibly argue that during the flood God mashed down all the land flat which would mean that there would be no land uncovered by water! On the other hand that's in *direct* contradiction of the story of the flood which simply says that it rained for 40 days.

the water came from under the ground and from the firmament, which the firmament is the canopy that keeps our environment intact, keeps the earth safe form the beating in outerspace.

Well, water is actually pretty hard to destroy. You can freeze it, vaporize it, but the amount of water around is pretty much constant and we can measure it in *all* its forms: we pretty much know exactly how much water there is on the Earth--and under that "firmament" too. For it to rain enough to cover all the land or even most of it would require many, many, many, many times the total amount of water we know we have on the earth to be created from nothing in 40 days, and disappear in 10 months or so, never to be seen again.

the Bible says in Genesis that the ground rose and the water asided. there where eathequakes and volcanos, and the water had enough strength to move everything around, make holes and valleys and mountains.

You reading the same Bible I have in front of me? I don't see anything like that:

Genesis 7:17: Then the flood came upon the earth for forty days, and the water increased and lifted up the ark, so that it rose above the earth.

18 The water prevailed and increased greatly upon the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water.

19 The water prevailed more and more upon the earth, so that all the high mountains everywhere under the heavens were covered.

20 The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered.

Nothing there about the "land being lifted up" honey. I have heard people argue that that is their *interpretation* of the Bible, but that is not what it says. The flood happened because it rained. The Bible is either the absolute truth or it isn't. Right?

How'd all the right bones just *happen* to end up in the various layers so that they're all the same ones at the same levels?

what do you mean by this? are you asking how did the bones of one animal get stuch in various layers? It took at least nearly a year to form all this.

Well, again, there's nothing in the Bible about any moving around of land:

Genesis 8:3 and the water receded steadily from the earth, and at the end of one hundred and fifty days the water decreased.

4 In the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, the ark rested upon the mountains of Ararat.

5 The water decreased steadily until the tenth month; in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, the tops of the mountains became visible.

(I love the part about how it came to rest on Mount Ararat, and *then* it took another month for the mountains to become visible: wait, is Ararat not a mountain? I'm confused!) All it says is they were exposed. Not that they got jumbled around! More importantly, when we dig up these old bones, the oldest life forms are further down and the newer life forms are higher up, and this is absolutely consistent everywhere in all cases without exception. Now if God just turned on the ol' Cuisinart and jumbled everything around, even for a *whole year*, well, the chances that the bones would end up being buried *exactly* with the same kinds of animals at the same levels, well, its more likely that a tornado would hit a junkyard and make a 747...

Is the evolution theory of fossil formation not full of questions questions questions?

Sure! It wouldn't be science if it weren't! But it makes sense to many folks, and that includes folks who are very religious! Why is Genesis correct, and Hindu creation myths (which are *very* different) wrong?

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[Buffy]

there have been hundreds of flood stories told at diffrent times all around the world collected. ancient global flood stories from ancient Babylon, Greece, India, North America, South America and the Pacific...they all have simularities. how could you explain how this global flood story be so populer in ancient times?

As I've posted elsewhere, I think there's decent evidence that at one point the Black Sea was well below sea level, and that at some point the Bosporus Straight opened up, inundating a HUGE number of the humans then around. Even if this was a gradual rather than catastrophic event, it would have rapidly become a central piece of historical mythology (meaning it got made bigger and more amazing as time went on). This theory is still not widely accepted, but there's much more evidence for it than anything else in the Bible, and the estimate of it having happened about 10-8 thousand years ago would have been perfect timing for it to have become important and widely disseminated by the time recorded history began 3-4 thousand years *later*. Note there's nothing amazing about this one at all, and it would have simply filled in a depression in the earth, and not a very deep one at that (Death Valley in California is almost as deep as the floor of the Black Sea), but it would have been devistating to pre-historical humans and cause much consternation among their leaders and shamans as to what they had done to deserve to be punished like that.

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[Zohaar818]

All plants all over the world have seeds that are all fertile at the same time? Name a time of the year that you could flood the planet when all the plants in the world are in season.

 

What is this now..we're arguing flood myths? is that what the science pages have been reduced to? There is a perfectly good explanation for the flood myths..which are global..and that is that roughly 12,500 years ago the poles shifted...and in fact antarctica used to be a temperate continent until the last polar shift. I say last polar shift since there is evidence to suggest it has happened more than a few times in earth history.

As for the way the world is put together like a puzzle..gee..it sure would look that way given that scientists now agree with the continental drift theory and have evidence to show exactly how that works.

Looking at greenland today should give you an idea about how much water there used to be and how sea levels are rising again..

Some scientists believe we are in for a pole shift in our lifetime...very soon in fact.

 

As for the evolutionary record....where is the intermediate brain..the one that is supposedly to be found in the evolutiuonary stages between chimp and human..between our ancestors and cro magnon?

No evidence anywhere of the missing link who showed some in- between stage of brain development to the brain we have today.

 

Seems to me both camps have a lot of holes in their respective theories...but again..why posit a God if it is not necessary to prove the math or the science?

[Zohaar818]

All these are from plate tectonics. All the conenents are floating around on plates that mash into each other. We've got satellite, ground movement and other measurements that tell us exactly how fast these plates are moving, so except for those people who do not believe that time is a constant, we know that they work this way. When these plates mash into eachother, they form mountain ranges that are all aligned. The Himalayas are being formed by the Indian plate mashing into the Asian plate, and we can even observe Mount Everest getting taller! Other ranges are formed by volcanism, like the Hawaiian Islands that sit over a hot spot underneath the Pacific Ocean, and you can see that the oldest islands (e.g. Kauai, although the chain actually goes all the way up to Midway Island), has undergone heavy erosion, while the newest island--the Big Island--still has the active volcanos, and there are new islands forming that have not reached the surface south east of there. Again this is not a guess: we're watching this happening *now*. An inch here and an inch there and in a few million years you have a pretty big mountain range!

Why is Genesis correct, and Hindu creation myths (which are *very* different) wrong?

 

Cheers,

Buffy

 

 

http://www.world-mysteries.com/sci_2.htm

 

A bit of science and a bit of scripture to add to the debate...it accounts for flood myths, the sun standing still for a day, and all the other stuff this argument seems to have reduced itself to.

But the link I post takes some very very serious science into account and should be worth a read even for skeptics [of both camps].

keep in mind that anyone challenging either theory [creationist a la Bible..or agnostic a la the hard science only please] will have to acoun t for the wooly mammoths in siberia along with tropical tree and shrub fossils in the tundra..with the magnetic trails left by rocks..the fact that of all the world's waterfalls only 3 are [possibly] dated to before 6,000 years ago....you know..the riddles that no scientist can explain and which the Bible makes no mention of...

[Queso]

the sun standing still for a day? that means that the earth just decided to stop it's emense momentum of rotation, then hey! start again.

[Queso]

if the "sun standed still for a day" so many things would get messed up. i just surfed that website and most of it is ridiculous.

[Queso]

polar shifts????????????????? i've never heard of such a thing!

[Zohaar818]

polar shifts????????????????? i've never heard of such a thing!

 

Sorry, wrong link. ;-)

Try this one for a morte balanced view...

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/pole2.htm

Oh...and BTW..you still haven't explained the mammoths..or the fossilized tropic plants found in arctic regions..two facts for which only one theory really fits and that is sudden geographic polar shift.

I find it less than amusing sometimes how some will blindly stick to a pet theory when facts like these go unaccounted for in their models. Either the mammoth was found or it wasn't. Either the findings of fossilized tropical plants buried in snow and ice cores of the polar cap are genuine or a hoax.

Since on no webpage can I find claims of a hoax relating to these finds were published in scientific journals and forums of repute I posit that there has indeed been geographic polar shift in our history..and further..to the poster wondering about t he sun standing still for a day...when one imagines that if our geogrpahic [spin] axis were to suddenly change it would appear to those on land and sea that the sun, indeed would not rise and set as in the cou rse of any normal day...to some it would dissapear below the horizon..to others it would appear to stand still or shift its arc in our skies from one 'east' to a new one.

Yes, there would be chaos on earth, and there is plenty in the record to show that our recent ancestors .and 95% of all living species were severly stressed in that time..that it was for them a time of floods, high winds, volcanoes and earthquakes that darkened the skies and seperated lands one from another.

And yes, it means that whales ended up on mountain tops..which we have also discovered in our archeological digs.

Now, then...for the record I am not claiming that these shifts occurred as a result of planet X moving through our solar system as some do..nor am I blaming it on the increasing wickedness of mankind as some do..Nor am I saying this is the result of the sun's magnetic properties and intertrnal storms triggering a reaction in our own earth core that causes a shift from way down below..as some do. I don't care if the meachanism is crust displacement or mother nature scratching an itch..all I care about is hearing or reading a coherent theory which takes all the known facts into account..and which includes and accounts for the mammoths and the whales and tropical plants in the tundra.

 

:shrug:

[Zohaar818]

the sun standing still for a day? that means that the earth just decided to stop it's emense momentum of rotation, then hey! start again.

 

If string theeorists and quantum theorists are right in their models then earth is spinning on more than one axis..try thinking of a ball in hyperspace, not in 3d or 4d space...if you want I'll send you the link.

here's one I hope, however, will raise an eyebrow and get us all thinking on the same page..

http://www.bearfabrique.org/Catastrophism/floods/mfloods.html

 

I am open to any argument about the theory..as I say..i am not a creationist [or any other kind of ist..in fact I'm doing my best to dissociate myself from all isms..]..but any argument offered has to explain the anomalies..and the whales...

http://www.bearfabrique.org/Catastrophism/floods/mfloods.html

[Kukucan]

There is a perfectly good explanation for the flood myths..which are global..and that is that roughly 12,500 years ago the poles shifted...and in fact antarctica used to be a temperate continent until the last polar shift.

The last time that the Earth's poles switched was more than 700,000 years ago. According to NASA, we may be do for another one as soon as 2012. And Antarctical was either tropical or sub-tropical MILLIONS of years ago.

[Kukucan]

If string theeorists and quantum theorists are right in their models then earth is spinning on more than one axis..try thinking of a ball in hyperspace, not in 3d or 4d space...if you want I'll send you the link.

String theory sure has a lot of evidence to support it, huh...

 

I am open to any argument about the theory..as I say..i am not a creationist [or any other kind of ist..in fact I'm doing my best to dissociate myself from all isms..]..but any argument offered has to explain the anomalies..and the whales...

The whales on mountain tops example is a classic Creationist argument, despite the explanation being so simple...

[Queso]

The whales on mountain tops example is a classic Creationist argument, despite the explanation being so simple...

 

how DO you explain it though? i'm very curious.

[Kukucan]

It has to do with the formation of the particular mountains. In the case of the Himalayan Mountains, home of Mount Everest, sedimentary rocks, some of which contains marine fossils over 50 million years old, was gradually thrusted upward. This is due to the colliding of the Indian and Eurasian plates, the rocks on top behaving like rug being pushed against a wall, or a blanket being pushed to the foot of your bed, compressing and wrinkling upwards.

 

Creation's claims that this supports the Bible don't hold water (please excuse the pun), because layers are not at the same elevations worldwide. They correspond to the geological processes which formed them, over VAST time scales.

[Biochemist]

The last time that the Earth's poles switched was more than 700,000 years ago. According to NASA, we may be do for another one as soon as 2012. And Antarctical was either tropical or sub-tropical MILLIONS of years ago.

We are on at least 3 different topis here:

 

1) The nature of flood myths, the relationship to the Biblical story and the scientific evidence on several related issues.

2) Did the poles flip?

3) How credible is the Biblical flood story?

 

I suggest we break this into at least those three threads. Somebody start.

[lindagarrette]

We are on at least 3 different topis here:

 

1) The nature of flood myths, the relationship to the Biblical story and the scientific evidence on several related issues.

2) Did the poles flip?

3) How credible is the Biblical flood story?

 

I suggest we break this into at least those three threads. Somebody start.

You're kidding, of course. About the Biblical story being credible, that is.:note: