Terra Preta

[maikeru]

n/a double post

[JMJones0424]

The hyphae answer you gave is what I had hoped it would be, I could not imagine that a fungi which had survived for millions of years not having a back up plan.

 

Again, we are running into very little accessible (at least to us) scientific data on AMFs. I have a strong suspicion that my particular practices informed by permaculture may be the reason why we observe vastly different effectiveness of supplementary AMF inoculation of planting beds. Though there may easily be contrary reports, this one (Rapid Turnover of Hyphae of Mycorrhizal Fungi... gives an observed lifespan of 5 to 6 days for extra-radical mycelium (outside the root hyphae). In an area where a monocropped root vegetable is harvested and the soil is left barren for a week or more, it would seem that most all the AMF hyphae would die.

 

Given that Terra Preta is said to be approximately 30% charcoal this would I believe create an environment suited to VAM's. We must agree to disagree on this point but only time will tell as to the veracity of this.

I would not disagree with that statement, and I doubt anyone else here would either. I do disagree that additional inoculation of AMF is beneficial in most cases (when using organic methods), and the fact that you have found it to be beneficial is of interest to me. The question of why it is beneficial to you and not to me is what I am trying to nail down, as it will help me better understand one important component of soil microbiota.

 

Your quote from David D. Douds Jr. was interesting but would you not get the same effect from cultivating hardy and half hardy bean and pea crops in the soil? Is there a particular reason for the choice of plant as it is unknown to me?

 

There are a number of reasons why bahia grass in particular was chosen, most importantly because 1) it will not likely harbor pests and diseases that are shared by the plants intended to be innoculated with AMF, and because 2) it will completely die during cold winters and thus not become a weed. Because of the second reason, bahia grass would make a poor choice for me to use as a host plant, but if I understand you situation correctly, it would be suitable for you. Note, that as long as the soil is continuosly planted, none of this should be necessary (?).

 

Glad to hear about your biochar inoculation process. I generally take a lazier approach. I make two different types of "compost". The majority of vegetable trimmings and table scraps that aren't contaminated with excess sodium or animal fats go into a vermicompost bin. All other garden waste and food scraps are held in subsoil pits and interspersed with biochar and shredded newspaper until I make my hot-compost piles in the winter, where the contents of the pits are added to horse stall litter, more biochar, garden waste, poultry litter and feathers, and various other sourced materials to be composted. I use large chunks of biochar for outdoor cooking, and the finer particles and any excess large chunks are wrapped in an old, heavy canvass tarp and pulverized by driving my truck over it several times, then held in plastic barrels until used. Don't do this on a windy day :)

[URIEL 13]

I think there must be evolution or community adaptation happening in regards to the terra preta "wee beasties," and this would only make sense, given that terra preta/biochar alters pH, nutrient availability, microhabitats, etc. It seems to favor VAMs and symbiotic as well as free-living nitrogen-fixing microbes.

 

Hi maikeru,

 

My point exactly, TP is a process which must be nurtured, Bacteria, fungi and yeasts have lived through the many ice ages of this planet.

 

As survivors they have few equals due to their ability to adapt to circumstance, however I do believe that the process took time to evolve. This was no overnight wonder, I believe that it took a while for the process to reach the stage of becoming TP.

 

I also think that other processes like Bokashi, kombucha and EM's(effective micro-organisms) may all have a part to play in the re-creation of a TP type soil. What I do believe is that we can create a living soil worthy of the name, freed from chemical fertilisers, weed killers and insecticides.

 

I am also glad to hear another voice on the subject of charcoal leaching soluble nutrient into the soil who agrees with my findings.

 

I have at present 2 compost bins full of my TP type compost which I will bubble wrap before winter sets in. They will be monitored on a week to week basis to ensure that moisture is always present within each bin.

 

The content of these bins will be used in my first experiments using a TP type compost.

 

 

URIEL 13

[Getting A Life]

Just a wee heads up on the mycorrhizal fungi as discussed. VAM is a broad term that doesn't deal with specifics of major mycorrhizal fungi.

 

The two major groups of mycorrhizal fungi are ectomycorrhizal and endomycorrhizal. The majority of plants associate with one of the two, some with both.

 

Ectomycorrhizal fungi are typically basidiomycetes with visible fruiting bodies. They wrap their hyphae around the exterior of root systems. Typical associations are with trees and perennials. In vitro propogation of most species fails or lacks vitality as they require a host plant. Many endomycorrhizal species can be found associated with host trees in autumn (normally a couple metres out from drip line) and their fruiting bodies can be gathered and made into a spore slurry for innoculation of similar species being planted on your land.

 

Endomycorrhizal fungi are zygomycetes. These lack a visible fruiting body and sporulate underground for the most part. The hypha penetrate cell walls of roots. These species are typically associated with annuals, like many of our vegetable crops. It takes a microscope to find these associations.

 

Doud's bahai grass is a great system, but many other plants may be better suited for endomycorrhizal propogation in your environment as discussed.

 

The science slapping is a bit out of line. If academic papers do not float your boat by all means find more suitable reading material for yourself. In vitro experiments are obviously limited but there are a great number of field trials regarding fungi and biochar all around the globe.

 

I agree that innoculating char will accelerate it's benefits in soil. If the soil lacks (and needs) the organisms you are innoculating. Compost teas, bahai type endo cultures, collection of autumn ectomycorrhizal species for the compost, that's how it's done cheaply.

 

Here's another list of some plants and associations. Products there too, not a product placement. Not my business. I'm a student.

 

Fungal associations.

[URIEL 13]

Again, we are running into very little accessible (at least to us) scientific data on AMFs. I have a strong suspicion that my particular practices informed by permaculture may be the reason why we observe vastly different effectiveness of supplementary AMF inoculation of planting beds. Though there may easily be contrary reports, this one (Rapid Turnover of Hyphae of Mycorrhizal Fungi... gives an observed lifespan of 5 to 6 days for extra-radical mycelium (outside the root hyphae). In an area where a monocropped root vegetable is harvested and the soil is left barren for a week or more, it would seem that most all the AMF hyphae would die.

 

 

I would not disagree with that statement, and I doubt anyone else here would either. I do disagree that additional inoculation of AMF is beneficial in most cases (when using organic methods), and the fact that you have found it to be beneficial is of interest to me. The question of why it is beneficial to you and not to me is what I am trying to nail down, as it will help me better understand one important component of soil microbiota.

 

 

 

There are a number of reasons why bahia grass in particular was chosen, most importantly because 1) it will not likely harbor pests and diseases that are shared by the plants intended to be innoculated with AMF, and because 2) it will completely die during cold winters and thus not become a weed. Because of the second reason, bahia grass would make a poor choice for me to use as a host plant, but if I understand you situation correctly, it would be suitable for you. Note, that as long as the soil is continuosly planted, none of this should be necessary (?).

 

Glad to hear about your biochar inoculation process. I generally take a lazier approach. I make two different types of "compost". The majority of vegetable trimmings and table scraps that aren't contaminated with excess sodium or animal fats go into a vermicompost bin. All other garden waste and food scraps are held in subsoil pits and interspersed with biochar and shredded newspaper until I make my hot-compost piles in the winter, where the contents of the pits are added to horse stall litter, more biochar, garden waste, poultry litter and feathers, and various other sourced materials to be composted. I use large chunks of biochar for outdoor cooking, and the finer particles and any excess large chunks are wrapped in an old, heavy canvass tarp and pulverized by driving my truck over it several times, then held in plastic barrels until used. Don't do this on a windy day :)

 

Hi JMJones0424,

 

I agree as to the dearth of info relative to VAM's, however the link, although informative made no mention of spores left within the soil. This for me is need to know data, I realise that you cultivate on a vastly greater scale than myself, and that mono-cropping is essential to present methods of farming. That said, if we are to achieve the concept of a living soil mono-cropping I believe would be unsustainable. Now given that all the crops on my experimental plot of earth will be mycorrhizal type crops I expect to see good results.

 

From initial findings the addition of VAM's along with inoculated and composted charcoal was much more productive than compost / manure on its own. What we need to establish is if sufficient spores are created and increased by the inoculation of the charcoal. Ultimately it is the number of VAM spores within the parent soil will I believe determine the productivity of VAM type crops.

 

As to why our initial findings show that the addition of VAM's is beneficial may be down to our differing stand points. We see VAM's as being insufficient in numbers due to the lack of charcoal / carbon in the soil to sustain greater numbers of VAM's. Your stand point is that VAM's exist in sufficient numbers within the parent soil. Our aim is to increase the charcoal content of the parent soil to approximately 30% Thereby sustaining the dormant spores of VAM's. This is based on our belief that VAM's are to few in number to initiate the TP process.

 

Our positions also differ in that you see AM's and VAM's as being one and the same, However our view is that only VAM's have an affinity with carbon in the form of charcoal. It is our belief that VAM's and charcoal are the engine of the TP process.

 

 

I will keep in mind to use of Bahia grass as a possible means of cultivating VAM spores.

 

So far the inoculation of charcoal has proved to be beneficial to the process, however the addition of Bokashi for those using this process as an adjunct to the terra Preta process may well increase the productivity of the soil. It is said that the EM's of the Bokashi process give plants a greater immunity to disease, however I can't confirm this as I as yet am not using Bokashi.This will not be known until next season when we harvest our respective crops.

 

We as a group have agreed to experiment with mainstay VAM type crops as they are essential to life. Where possible I will use heirloom crop seed as I have no wish to be tied to the multi-national company merry go round of annual crop seed purchase.

 

Given the much larger amounts of composting that you do mine is very small scale however this allows me to experiment in a way which would not be possible for you. I have had some bad experiences using horse manure due to the amount of perennial weed still viable within said manure. I now char all manure in my makeshift low temperature charcoal burner. To this I also add dried and bagged perennial weed roots so that they do not come back to haunt me on my allotment.

[JMJones0424]

As a recap-

 

Questions left to be answered:

1) Do AM fungi produce propagules throughout the lifespan of the host plant, or only as the host plant dies? Is there any way to prematurely trigger sporulation?

 

Doesn't look likely, but I am certainly not qualified to make a final ruling. According to the International Culture Collection of (Vesicular) Arbuscular Mycorrhizal Fungi:

 

1. During the active phase of shoot and root growth, most of the carbon going to the fungi colonizing roots is invested in mycorrhizal development (where fungal growth takes advantage of ever expanding root niche space). Carbon also is allocated to external hyphal development, but mostly for hyphae that are infective (produce secondary infection units) appear to be absorptive. The fungi are not partitioning much carbon to sporulation, possibly because sink size would compromise rate and amount of mycorrhiza biomass.

 

2. Once roots have ceased growth because of constraints imposed by pot boundaries, mycorrhizal colonization catches up in roots and at some point also reaches stasis.

 

3. With continued photosynthesis in shoots, carbon is repartioned to the one niche still open to fungal growth, and that is in sporulation. This allocation continues as long as there is an active carbon source (leaves, stems). The extent of continued sporulation following stasis in plants seems to be consistently greater and longer for Gigaspora and Scutellospora species than for Glomus, Acaulospora, Entrophospora, Paraglomus, and Archaeospora spp.

 

It appears that root restriction (in the above case through growing the host plant in containers) is the only way to stimulate sporulation prior to host plant death.

 

 

2) If any significant portion of biochar is soluble and therefore biologically available, why does it persist for centuries in TP? I thought the only significant source of C for AMF is from host plant metabolites. I have been working under the assumption that biochar in soil acts as a replacement for stable humus, is this an incorrect assumption?

 

Questions left to be answered by URIEL 13:

 

1) The terms AM and VAM (and for that matter, endomycorrhizal, since we are not dealing with Orchidaceae or Ericaceae families) in the literature I have read are interchangeable. If your contention is that fungi that produce vesicles differ functionally from those that don't in their response to biochar in the soil, do you have a source for this? Or is this from observation? If from observation, please elaborate on how you came to this conclusion

 

2) What do you think has caused your soil to be lacking in (V)AM propugules? Do you have access to a microscope to examine your soil and roots of host plants?

 

Clarifications:

 

1) I have about 25 acres of silty clay pastureland, only one of which have I begun a 50/50 test of spreading compost ammended with biochar versus regular compost as a top dressing twice a year. Results so far (after one year) are inconclusive, probably due to a lack of sufficient biochar for the area being tested.

 

2) I have about an acre under management for production of vegetables, but easily half of that area is either pathways covered with woodchips or temporarily devoted to growing wildflowers and/or non-food legumes as a green manure. Newer beds were created with innoculated biochar, and within a year those beds were indistiguishable from the decade old beds that were created without biochar. It took about three years for the older beds to reach full productivity, but I did not take accurate notes during that time, so my memory may be skewed. I have been top dressing the older beds (starting last year) with biochar compost.

 

3)The seeds distributed in horse manure and litter from horse stalls are killed during hot-composting, as are any other seeds or diseases that may be recyled from garden waste. The horse stall litter is free to me, and the waste hay that comes with it helps the C:N ratio for my hot-composting, that's why I use it. Charring manure drives off nitrogen(?), which in my situation is the limiting factor when you have access to sufficient amounts of animal manure for phosphorous, and for this reason I don't want to char the manure.

 

4) I DO NOT monocrop! This is one of the major problems I have with industrial agriculture.

 

Additionally, I finally found this recommendation for testing procedures in my favorites tab. Please accept my apologies for the tardiness, I hope it isn't too late. I really need to be more organized.

http://files.meetup.com/215138/IBI%20Biochar%20Trial%20Guide%20final.pdf

 

Note-this post was edited for clarity and additional content. I don't know what happened to the old "reasons for editing line"

Edited October 30, 2010 by JMJones0424

[URIEL 13]

Just a wee heads up on the mycorrhizal fungi as discussed. VAM is a broad term that doesn't deal with specifics of major mycorrhizal fungi.

 

The two major groups of mycorrhizal fungi are ectomycorrhizal and endomycorrhizal. The majority of plants associate with one of the two, some with both.

 

Ectomycorrhizal fungi are typically basidiomycetes with visible fruiting bodies. They wrap their hyphae around the exterior of root systems. Typical associations are with trees and perennials. In vitro propogation of most species fails or lacks vitality as they require a host plant. Many endomycorrhizal species can be found associated with host trees in autumn (normally a couple metres out from drip line) and their fruiting bodies can be gathered and made into a spore slurry for innoculation of similar species being planted on your land.

 

Endomycorrhizal fungi are zygomycetes. These lack a visible fruiting body and sporulate underground for the most part. The hypha penetrate cell walls of roots. These species are typically associated with annuals, like many of our vegetable crops. It takes a microscope to find these associations.

 

Doud's bahai grass is a great system, but many other plants may be better suited for endomycorrhizal propogation in your environment as discussed.

 

The science slapping is a bit out of line. If academic papers do not float your boat by all means find more suitable reading material for yourself. In vitro experiments are obviously limited but there are a great number of field trials regarding fungi and biochar all around the globe.

 

I agree that innoculating char will accelerate it's benefits in soil. If the soil lacks (and needs) the organisms you are innoculating. Compost teas, bahai type endo cultures, collection of autumn ectomycorrhizal species for the compost, that's how it's done cheaply.

 

Here's another list of some plants and associations. Products there too, not a product placement. Not my business. I'm a student.

 

Fungal associations.

 

HI Getting A Life,

 

I already have this information to hand am reasonably acquainted with mycrorrhiza, but my thanks for your input.

 

Science slapping! I think not,my position has always been that science and Mother nature are often at odds with one another. What works in sterile environments and in field trials can lead to disasters in the real world.

 

A typical example was the marketing of Aminopyralid, this was the latest great product for infestation of Ragwort on pasture land. Ragwort is an ancient herb which if ingested in sufficient quantity by farm animals is fatal. Unfortunately by the time that symptoms become apparent it is too late to save the animal as it destroys the liver of said animal.

 

But worse was to come the compost and manure from these pastures and animals was tainted with this product. It devastated allotments all across the UK, Not only that, it has been proven to be residual within the soil leading to legal action within the UK.

 

However my worst fear is that this product is now in the food chain through the slaughter of farm animals for food.

 

I believe that science has a place within the modern world, however good science is often tainted by companies who only seek profit!

[URIEL 13]

As a recap-

 

Questions left to be answered:

1) Do AM fungi produce propagules throughout the lifespan of the host plant, or only as the host plant dies? Is there any way to prematurely trigger sporulation?

 

Doesn't look likely, but I am certainly not qualified to make a final ruling. According to the International Culture Collection of (Vesicular) Arbuscular Mycorrhizal Fungi:

 

 

 

It appears that root restriction (in the above case through growing the host plant in containers) is the only way to stimulate sporulation prior to host plant death.

 

 

2) If any significant portion of biochar is soluble and therefore biologically available, why does it persist for centuries in TP? I thought the only significant source of C for AMF is from host plant metabolites. I have been working under the assumption that biochar in soil acts as a replacement for stable humus, is this an incorrect assumption?

 

Questions left to be answered by URIEL 13:

 

1) The terms AM and VAM (and for that matter, endomycorrhizal, since we are not dealing with Orchidaceae or Ericaceae families) in the literature I have read are interchangeable. If your contention is that fungi that produce vesicles differ functionally from those that don't in their response to biochar in the soil, do you have a source for this? Or is this from observation? If from observation, please elaborate on how you came to this conclusion

 

2) What do you think has caused your soil to be lacking in (V)AM propugules? Do you have access to a microscope to examine your soil and roots of host plants?

 

Clarifications:

 

1) I have about 25 acres of silty clay pastureland, only one of which have I begun a 50/50 test of spreading compost ammended with biochar versus regular compost as a top dressing twice a year. Results so far (after one year) are inconclusive, probably due to a lack of sufficient biochar for the area being tested.

 

2) I have about an acre under management for production of vegetables, but easily half of that area is either pathways covered with woodchips or temporarily devoted to growing wildflowers and/or non-food legumes as a green manure. Newer beds were created with innoculated biochar, and within a year those beds were indistiguishable from the decade old beds that were created without biochar. It took about three years for the older beds to reach full productivity, but I did not take accurate notes during that time, so my memory may be skewed. I have been top dressing the older beds (starting last year) with biochar compost.

 

3)The seeds distributed in horse manure and litter from horse stalls are killed during hot-composting, as are any other seeds or diseases that may be recyled from garden waste. The horse stall litter is free to me, and the waste hay that comes with it helps the C:N ratio for my hot-composting, that's why I use it. Charring manure drives off nitrogen(?), which in my situation is the limiting factor when you have access to sufficient amounts of animal manure for phosphorous, and for this reason I don't want to char the manure.

 

4) I DO NOT monocrop! This is one of the major problems I have with industrial agriculture.

 

Additionally, I finally found this recommendation for testing procedures in my favorites tab. Please accept my apologies for the tardiness, I hope it isn't too late. I really need to be more organized.

http://files.meetup.com/215138/IBI%20Biochar%20Trial%20Guide%20final.pdf

 

Note-this post was edited for clarity and additional content. I don't know what happened to the old "reasons for editing line"

 

HI JMJones0424,

 

Sorry for the long pause this was due to me contacting the members of our group, and getting feedback as to my revealing our knowledge to you. It is the consensus of our group that I put up the following post.

 

Although I have passed on an over view what we know, it is the feeling within our group that it would be inappropriate for me to pass on all that we have learned about this process. We as a group are minded that our best efforts could well be circumvented by those who would benefit from our knowledge and use it for financial profit.

 

We are at an early stage in our experiments with the creating, inoculating and composting of our special charcoal. Those who have already begun to experiment this year are seeing higher yields. However I feel that we must approach these experiments with a view to quantifying amended and non-amended soil results. This is I believe necessary for obvious reasons. It will be at least 3 years before we can assess the true worth of what we have created, not least the longevity of our amended soils.

 

It is our wish that any benefits accrued from the re-creation of a Terra Preta type soil be made available to all who wish to re-create it for themselves. If we succeed we will make the formula available free of charge to any and all who wish to create a living soil.

 

Your link was informative, we as a group will assess its worth in relation to our project. It is our belief that we have much to offer in the quest of re-creating a TP soil.

 

No disrespect intended, but we as a group feel that we are heading in the right direction. We will continue to follow our own path based on what we see and more importantly what we have learned in contributing to a living soil.

 

I will however pass on from time to time the results of our experiments for you to peruse if you wish to be kept informed. This has been agreed by our group with regard to greater crop production only. How we nourish our soil and the extra ingredients involved in the process must at this time be known only unto us.

 

PS:- My apologies on the mono-cropping comment, I misread your reply.

 

PPS:- You may find the following link of interest, If nothing else it says to us that science is as yet unsure of the role of charcoal within Terra Preta.

 

http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/publ/PlantSoil%20300,%209-20,%202007,%20Warnock.pdf