Replacing 'rare earths' in batteries?

[Eclipse Now]

Hi all,

as electric car systems roll out across the globe, especially the "Better Place" system which I think is a great business model and solves many technical problems (more on that below), I'm just wondering what nano-tech or chemical solutions are being found to the approaching problem of rare earth's getting far too rare? It looks like a form of resource nationalism has already hit rare earth's in China.

 

As hybrid cars gobble rare metals, shortage looms | U.S. | Reuters

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/01/business/global/01minerals.html?_r=1&ref=business&pagewanted=all

 

Now, below is my usual "copy and paste" rave about Better Place. I hope you enjoy. No, I don't have shares with them but just think they're the best hope we have of transitioning off oil, and because they are V2G (vehicle to grid) they can help stabilise power supply from intermittent power resources like wind etc.

 

For a long time the Electric Car market has been hampered by 2 things:

* the price of buying a new battery for $4000 every 2 or 3 years,

* the fact that a sudden 'fuel up' takes 4 or 5 hours. (No driving between Sydney and Melbourne in one hit!)

 

Better Place have solved that.

Better Place - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

* You buy the car, they maintain ownership of the battery.

* Many cars sit still 22 hours a day, so once charge points are installed everywhere you can charge at work, home, the shops or church.

* Automated battery swap stations swap out your battery faster than you can refill your conventional car with petroleum!

* But because charge points are everywhere, you'll swap out batteries far less than you refill your current petroleum car.

* The cars will be cheaper, faster, require less servicing, and be MORE convenient than gasoline/petroleum cars.

* They are creating international standards for all car companies to follow and participate in this model!

* These Better Place EV's will be V2G (Vehicle to Grid), and so can sell energy back to the grid. In effect, they will act as a significant battery for the intermittent power supply of wind and solar! 50,000 cars = 1 gigawatt of power available for "grid smoothing".

* the batteries sort of follow a Moore's law of their own and will become cheaper and more powerful.

[UncleAl]

1) How much does a battery pack weigh?

2) How fast does it self-discharge?

3) It still lasts the same interval. Do you think Better Place will eat the depreciation over time?

4) How many batteries need be in distributed inventory - and what does that cost up front?

[Moontanman]

I've given this thread some thought and I think I'll have to go with UncleAll on this one. I look at other things that are "exchanged" like propane tanks.

 

I had my own propane tank, it was well made and I kept it in good shape. When the places to get propane started getting few and far between I decided to use the tank exchange to get a tank of propane. The tank I got in exchange for mine was a cheep flimsy tank that had been rusted and was painted over to make it look new.

 

Often when the exchange thing starts the exchanged item is as cheep as possible. Low grade tanks now flood the market and I often have to go through several to find one that looks like it might be safe.

 

I would fear the battery exchange would be cheap unreliable batteries, for sure if you were out of town and stopped for am exchange you would get the worst of the lot they have because they would know you were not coming back.

 

Then there is, as UncleAl suggested, the weight problem. How big will battery have to be to contain as much energy as a tank full of gasoline? I'm betting a battery pack will weigh several hundred pounds at least and require machinery to exchange them. It will not be the same as changing the batteries in your flash light.

 

Even changing out the battery in your car takes more time than filling your gas tank, how much time will it take to change out a battery pack that large? The idea of exchanging battery packs would seem to be a large problem.

[Eclipse Now]

Guys, rare earths, remember?

 

As for the battery-swap, the "Better Place" name would be at stake! They have priced in the cost of replacing the battery every 3 to 4 years, and it is still as cheap as petrol at 60 cents a litre!

 

Not only that, but the CEO talked about the cost of the batteries goes down as performance goes up according to a Moore's law. Shai Agassi said that in a few years, if you lock in your agreed price / km transport for a 5, 6, or 7 year contract, he could visualise a situation where you sign the km's contract and they give you the car for FREE! (Because batteries are getting so cheap!)

 

As for the battery swap stations... watch this video of the world's first automated battery swap station in Tokyo where Better Place will be experimenting with the Taxi market next year!

 

Californian's will see Better Place charging points springing up all over the place and Battery Swap stations coming...

 

Video here.

Video: Better Place's automated electric vehicle battery switch station is faster than Melvin Dummar

[CraigD]

Hi all,

as electric car systems roll out across the globe, especially the "Better Place" system which I think is a great business model and solves many technical problems (more on that below), I'm just wondering what nano-tech or chemical solutions are being found to the approaching problem of rare earth's getting far too rare?

First, I think it’s important to note that although some of the key chemical elements in electric vehicles – neodymium, which is required in quantities of a few kg in high-performance electric motors, and lanthanum and lithium, required in few tens of kg in large NMH and Lithium ion vehicle batteries – are know as “rare earths” (except lithium), they’re not actually rare in the Earth’s crust, nor difficult to mine, refine, or recycle. At about 33, 34, and 17 ppm respectively, neodymium, lanthanum and lithium are about thrice and twice as common as, for example, lead, at about 10 ppm, and about half and one fourth as common as copper, at 68 ppm. (source: wikipedia article “Abundance of elements in Earth's crust”)

 

The potential shortages mentioned in post #1’s two linked articles are not due to actual scarcity of these elements worldwide, but due to the dominance of a single country, China (the PRC), which produces over 90% of the world’s neodymium and lanthanum. Lithium is produced in several countries, the major ones South American. Although China certainly enjoys a position to exert economic leverage, were they not to meet demand for rare earths, suppliers in other nation could increase production to make up for it.

 

As for “nano-tech” batteries, I believe lithium-titanate batteries such as Altair Nanotechnologies' “Nanosafe” are very promising, offering charge/discharge times of under 10 minutes, and a lifetime of about 25000 deep cycles vs. around 60 minutes and 1000 cycles for a LiPoly battery. However, even years after their introductions, they remain expensive and unusual other than in exotic applications, such as electric racecars (and perhaps the super-exotic, as yet un-built, Autovolantor flying car :phones:).

 

As we’ve discussed in some previous threads, the physics that allows these batteries to charge and discharge so quickly, coolly, and for so many cycles involved their anodes and cathodes not changing the arrangement of their atoms as they gain and lose electrons as much as conventional batteries. This advantage is, however, less important if, rather than quickly charging built-in batteries in vehicles, batteries are quickly swapped, as in schemes like Better Place’s, so I suspect batteries like the Nanosafe may remain exotic, niche products.

[maikeru]

I'm worried about the shortages of rare earth metals, and I'm not sure how many EVs will really make it to the road. Last year and this year a few of the most promising EV vehicle companies bit the dust in the financial crunch or from fraud or mismanagement. I think liquid fuels definitely have the edge as far as total energy, convenience, weight, etc. issues go, but the power and efficiency of electric motors is impressive. I'm placing my bets on hybrids or alternative fuel vehicles, not full EVs except in specialized niches or circumstances, and even then I'm still not sure how widespread adoption would be.

 

Here are some new battery technologies I've read about:

 

1. Molten salt batteries (such as ZEBRA).

 

Molten salt battery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

2. Carbon or silicon nanotube batteries. (Not sure how feasible, viable, or nontoxic these are. I have heard about health concerns and issues with nanotubes.)

 

Nanotube Technology Improves Rechargeable Lithium Batteries | Carbon Nano Tube Battery

Carbon Nanotubes Turn Office Paper into Batteries: Scientific American

 

3. The reliable but patently problematic NiMH (nickel-metal hydride) batteries.

 

Nickel-metal hydride battery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

4. Zinc-air batteries

 

Zinc-air battery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

5. Aluminum-air batteries

 

Aluminium battery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Just to name a few. It's been a while since I read about these. Don't ask me for details. UncleAl probably knows heaps, heaps more.

 

(Would it be out of the question to say I think we need more affordable, convenient, nonpolluting or cleaner, and sustainable mass transit to get rid of excess cars and roads?)

[Eclipse Now]

(Would it be out of the question to say I think we need more affordable, convenient, nonpolluting or cleaner, and sustainable mass transit to get rid of excess cars and roads?)

Now you're starting to sound like me.

 

Remember, "If you build it they will come." Build a good railway line, and New Urbanism and (potentially) attractively designed ecocity apartments will spring up around the station. It's to do with how the business and commercial real estate market react to the sheer numbers of pedestrians moving through a good railway station area. So build good rail and tram lines, and within a decade you've changed that part of the city!

 

However, a trolley-bus line is 5 times cheaper to lay than trams, but I'm not sure if it has the city-changing benefits. Trolley buses don't seem as permanent as trams or trains, so I'm not sure if people make long term investment strategies around trolley buses. I'll have to read up on it or ask some of the experts I know.

[maikeru]

Now you're starting to sound like me.

 

Remember, "If you build it they will come." Build a good railway line, and New Urbanism and (potentially) attractively designed ecocity apartments will spring up around the station. It's to do with how the business and commercial real estate market react to the sheer numbers of pedestrians moving through a good railway station area. So build good rail and tram lines, and within a decade you've changed that part of the city!

 

However, a trolley-bus line is 5 times cheaper to lay than trams, but I'm not sure if it has the city-changing benefits. Trolley buses don't seem as permanent as trams or trains, so I'm not sure if people make long term investment strategies around trolley buses. I'll have to read up on it or ask some of the experts I know.

 

Up in Salt Lake City, they put in light rail to the University of Utah and other parts of the city, and it's transformed the state capital quite a bit. Students can hop from the campus or their apts down to downtown, shopping malls, etc.

 

UTA TRAX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

I've never ridden a trolley bus, but I've had some chances to see and use trams, and they're interesting. I feel they contribute to the atmosphere of a town or city. A well-maintained bus system would help out much, too. Some I've seen run their bus systems like little airports. Fast, efficient, and relatively affordable. (Could be cheaper, IMO.)

 

One more thing we can explore is switching to other vehicles as Europeans do, with smaller cars, motorcycles, and Vespas, etc. As we know, Italy is the land of the Vespa.

[frmjin]

hi...tell me first how is it possible???????

[Eclipse Now]

Which bit?

[maikeru]

hi...tell me first how is it possible???????

 

No entiendo, amigo. (What part?)

[Eclipse Now]

While on this topic, I'm wondering how efficient modern mining has become? One conversation I had recently is that while the Limits To Growth people predicted limits to various metal resources based on conventional reserves, the technology has increased to the point where one could hypothetically just set up a mine almost anywhere on earth and grind away through the earth extracting anything useful at tiny parts-per-million. Is this true? Is this economically feasible?

[maikeru]

I'm not entirely sure, and this is related to what you've mentioned, but I've read that certain plants or bacteria can be used to "mine" cheaply and effectively by collecting and concentrating certain elements or minerals, like gold or copper. Later they are processed for the desired resources or the resources may be precipitated in a collectible form.

 

Biogeotechnology for Industry and Land Management - CSIRO Land and Water

 

One form of this is called "bioleaching":

 

Bioleaching - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[maikeru]

Oh, EclipseNow, think you might be interested in this. Behold, the super-iron battery. :naughty:

 

Super iron battery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.weizmann.ac.il/ICS/booklet/3/pdf3/3.pdf

 

Supposedly nontoxic.

 

Do you think that NiMH will be available again for EVs? Although not as powerful as lithium-based batteries, nickel is abundant, easily recyclable, and has a proven track record in EVs.

[CraigD]

Oh, EclipseNow, think you might be interested in this. Behold, the super-iron battery. :P

 

Super iron battery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.weizmann.ac.il/ICS/booklet/3/pdf3/3.pdf

Very interesting. :thumbs_up I’m surprised I’ve not heard about these, or seen them available as a consumer product, as at first glance they seem to offer higher (about 33%) energy density at similar or lower cost than the conventional alkaline electrolyte batteries one sees everywhere, while being rechargeable.

 

Put plainly “super oxidized iron batteries (terms like “super iron” are more promotional than descriptive), appears to me to describe two different batteries:

One has a zinc anode and a potassium-iron oxide ([ce]K_2FeO_4[/ce]) cathode,

the other a zinc anode and a barium-iron oxide ([ce]BaFeO_4[/ce]) cathode.

A conventional alkaline battery has:

a zinc anode and manganese dioxide ([ce]MnO_2[/ce]) cathode.

All have potassium hydroxide ([ce]KOH[/ce]) electrolytes betwixt their anodes and cathodes, and all have their cathodes in the form of a paste of graphite (carbon) powder and electrolyte.

 

In the experiments described in Licht’s paper (the second linked above), the “potassium-super iron” and “barium-super iron” batteries tested were made by extracting the [ce]MnO_2[/ce] paste (in a AAA battery, this is the paste on the outer steel shell) and repacking it with [ce]K_2FeO_4[/ce] or [ce]BaFeO_4[/ce] paste. The experiment used both AAA and 11 mm (“xx11nn”) button cell batteries.

 

Supposedly nontoxic.

While neither modern conventional manganese alkaline batteries nor super iron batteries contain toxic metals (eg: lead or mercury), and alkaline batteries are deemed by the US federal government to be non-hazardous waste, due to their caustic electrolytes, they’re not something you’d want to have leaking on yourself or your lawn, so “nontoxic” might somewhat overstate their safety. :eek2:

 

Being rechargeable, one would hope that super iron alkaline batteries would be less thrown out than usual, but I fear, if they were successful in the marketplace, they’d sufferer the same lack of market popularity and performance as rechargeable manganese alkaline (“RAM”) batteries. Though these batteries can be bought in many stores (eg: Rayovac Renewals in Target department stores in the US), and used in place of disposable manganese alkaline batteries, due, I think, to the inconvenience of recharging them and their uncertain reliability after a given charge cycle.

 

How alkaline batteries are made more rechargeable (practically all manganese alkaline batteries can be recharged a few times if done so slowly, though due to the risk of leaking or explosion, this should only be done with proper safety precautions) is, as best I can tell, something of a trade secret (mad props to anyone who can divulge the details of this). I suspect rechargeable super iron alkaline batteries would have performance and popularity issues similar to RAM batteries.

Do you think that NiMH will be available again for EVs? Although not as powerful as lithium-based batteries, nickel is abundant, easily recyclable, and has a proven track record in EVs.

Remaining the battery used in the 1.6 million Toyota Prius hybrids sold to date, I doubt that there’ll be any shortage of large NiMH batteries for EVs and hybrid vehicles in the near future. It’s uncertain, I think, if the long awaited manufacturer’s plug-in models of the Prius will use a Lithium ion battery, a NiMH, or both.

[Eclipse Now]

So, thinking about these batteries from the POV of a 'depletionist' such as myself... how are they going to stack up as we start to hit peak rare earth's?

[CraigD]

So, thinking about these batteries from the POV of a 'depletionist' such as myself... how are they going to stack up as we start to hit peak rare earth's?

Keeping in mind that the “rare earth” metals used in EV batteries and motors aren’t really rare (see post #5), and they’re currently and for the foreseeable future very efficiently recycled, I don’t think we will see a peak supply situation for them. They’ll become scarce only when and if the number of people using EVs and similar technologies becomes very high – that is, as world population grows and people in “emerging” nations use technology in an increasingly American-like manner. It’s more likely, I think, that we’ll see supply peaks in other important metals, such as copper. More critically by far, as people can always change lifestyles to curtail the use of vehicles and electricity, but can't change them to curtail eating, peak food will likely occur with dreadful effect before these other possible supply peaks. :(

 

Olduvai theory discusses at length the difficulty that future people may have in obtaining engineering metals in general, but most of this thinking assumes a “Mad Max” sort of scenario where technological civilization collapses for some time, and manufactured metals, especially iron/steel, rusts away into difficult to recover forms, so isn’t, I think, applicable to short-term future scenarios.

 

Obviously, but so key to such discussions that it bears repeating, materials used in batteries and electric motors are energy sources, in the sense that hydrocarbons like propane, gasoline, and diesel fuel are. They aren’t chemically destroyed to release energy, but mechanically and superficially chemically degraded through “wear and tear” use. And, they only store and transform energy, so require energy from the burning of fuel or some non-conventional source, such as hydro-electric, solar, or wind.

 

If you have enough energy, practically any fuel becomes renewable. For example, if you’re willing to use many time more energy that you can get from the resulting fuel, you can manufacture hydrocarbon fuels from any source of carbon and hydrogen, such as [ce]CO_2[/ce] and [ce]H_2O[/ce]. Likewise, if you have enough energy, you can manufacture food from any source of C, H, O, N, and a bit of P and S.

 

Energy is good. :)