Insect Zombies Evolution

[enorbet2]

Just to avoid the boring so-called "Intelligent Design" tangents that infect so many threads let me start off by saying that I'd appreciate it if such posts go elsewhere since I am uninterested in answers like "that's how God made it" not from any particular prejudice as much as that is the end of all discussion. So regardless of your take on "The Prime Mover" what I am interested in, while including some level of speculation, has more to do with how such specific activities and chemistry may have developed over time.

 

The phenomena I am referring to can be found here

 

Zombie Animals and the Parasites that Control Them | Unusual Organisms | DISCOVER Magazine

 

It's easy to see how such a thing could occur once completely by chance, but for it to occur in several species and to be passed on to the offspring where the victim is not merely convenient food but a contributor of work is a fascinating mystery.

[freeztar]

I agree that it is quite fascinating to imagine how this started and evolved.

We touched on some of these examples in the Parasites thread.

 

These biological brain surgeons are baffling.

 

Nonetheless, I can still envision mutations causing some pretty bizarre selections in Nature (from our perspective anyways). For example, a wasp species might feed predominantly on a certain spider species. As generations continue, an individual wasp "malfunctions" and deposits eggs into its "food". What's good for mom is good for the babies.

It's a "fortuitous accident" and the wasps emerging from their spider hosts are perhaps more nourished and better able to compete with other wasps of the same species. Generations continue and the old wasp ways are abandoned.

Now, imagine the wasp larvae incubating in their host. Perhaps these larvae would have more success if they manipulated the spider to keep them out of harms way. Of course, the larvae do not consciously decide this. They simply react to the chemicals around them and put out some of their own. Through successive generations, some of these chemicals released by the wasp larvae change their pathways, through mutations or epigenetic change. Some of these pathways lead to the parts of the brain responsible for controlling behavior. Generations continue...etc. etc.

 

The above situation is a hypothetical explanation that may or may not be correct. Yet, it helps explain away ID temptation through a scientific/logical deduction.

 

Some insects simply lay their eggs in dead prey and do just fine. Either that method works "good enough" for those insects or they have simply not evolved as quickly as others and are constantly involved in the warfare known as predator vs. prey. They may never change, or, they may undergo similar evolution that is just as bizarre.

 

Fwiw, the Fungi kingdom is not exempt. Check out cordyceps.

 

No wonder we have so many zombie movies. :D

 

Which makes me wonder...how are we parasites? Well, look at the milk industry in the US. We take from the cows to feed our own. We're no better than the parasites of other Kingdoms, we're just external rather than internal.

[Moontanman]

Zombie Animals and the Parasites that Control Them | Unusual Organisms | DISCOVER Magazine

 

It's easy to see how such a thing could occur once completely by chance, but for it to occur in several species and to be passed on to the offspring where the victim is not merely convenient food but a contributor of work is a fascinating mystery.

 

I think the idea these parasites developed by a random process ignores the real driver. While mutations are random natural selection is not. Natural selection builds on what came before and it is not random. One random mutation leads to a situation that goes in the direction of what works best. Each tiny step becomes less random and more directed by success. These parasite prey relationships did not come about totally at random at all, they were directed by natural selection and should be viewed that way. I am not mystified by this relationship i am more mystified it doesn't occur more often in larger animals like mammals. Then again does diseases do seem to cause symptoms that help spread the infection. Rabies is one, the common cold is another, possibly more complex animals are somehow resistant to this large parasite process but microbes seem to have it down pat.

[enorbet2]

I often remind myself how glibly we spout numbers that have no frame of reference in human experience and how this can make evolution more difficult to understand. For example, scientists and casual buffs often talk of the death of dinosaurs as taking place 65 Million years ago and especially as we have come to suspect an apocalyptic event, the impact of a meteorite the size of Mt Everest, which took place in mere moments, I think that begs the question did that take place in -65,000,000 or -65,192,543 or -64,834,109 at 12:40 on a Saturday in October? Even a hundred years variance is difficult to grasp.

 

So I get it, as much as humanly possible, that some billions of years ago predation developed, albeit mind numbingly slowly, and along with it, defense mechanisms began to appear as well as attraction permutations. especially once sex developed even in lower lifeforms. So even plants began to develop and favor either toxic chemistry to diminish leaves being eaten and/or attraction chemistry to spread seeds or spores. Venoms are an extremely important part of such evolution and it would appear these developed very early in the Ocean(s). Since venoms at some point became neurotoxins in many cases, whether manufactured within plants or animals (that in itself incredibly fascinating), and somehow protection for the host and powerful effects on the nervous systems of the victim or would-be predators.

 

What I am asking here is because of my wonder at how such effects became so specific rather than merely shutting down of support systems. There is some evidence that humans are behaviourally affected by certain toxins in moderately specific ways and I find this particularly fascinating especially when behaviour modification of any kind tends to be rationalized by the "victim" as coming from within, often as a conscious decision. This has awesome implications to the nature of consciousness and of self.

 

We unfortunately can't ask the spider why he has altered his web building design but it is a fascinating concept and mental exercise, don't you think?

[Theory5]

hey, they never mentioned the Goa'uld on that site :-P

This is very iteresting. It might show that there is no such thing as free will but I wont discuss that in the biology channel.

I would say that these parasites could inject some sort of thing that literally rewires the brain of the insect. but do insects have brains? or is this more along the lines of something else? Like when a mother animal protects another of a different species. Like what happens to the catapiller, where it protects the eggs that were laid in it. Do the eggs have some sort of marker that makes the catapiller want to protect them?

I agree with enorbet2, its a facinating mental excersise.

[Moontanman]

I often remind myself how glibly we spout numbers that have no frame of reference in human experience and how this can make evolution more difficult to understand. For example, scientists and casual buffs often talk of the death of dinosaurs as taking place 65 Million years ago and especially as we have come to suspect an apocalyptic event, the impact of a meteorite the size of Mt Everest, which took place in mere moments, I think that begs the question did that take place in -65,000,000 or -65,192,543 or -64,834,109 at 12:40 on a Saturday in October? Even a hundred years variance is difficult to grasp.

 

You really exspect the estimate of when the asteriod hit to accurate to the minute or even century?

 

 

So I get it, as much as humanly possible, that some billions of years ago predation developed, albeit mind numbingly slowly, and along with it, defense mechanisms began to appear as well as attraction permutations. especially once sex developed even in lower lifeforms. So even plants began to develop and favor either toxic chemistry to diminish leaves being eaten and/or attraction chemistry to spread seeds or spores. Venoms are an extremely important part of such evolution and it would appear these developed very early in the Ocean(s). Since venoms at some point became neurotoxins in many cases, whether manufactured within plants or animals (that in itself incredibly fascinating), and somehow protection for the host and powerful effects on the nervous systems of the victim or would-be predators.

 

Chemical warfare has been a apart of the ecology, natural selection, and evolution since the very beginning. Sometimes it confers advantages to the primary as well as the secondary creatures. Oxygen production by algae caused a huge environmental crisis as the poisonous oxygen began to build up in the environment. Other creatures soon evolved tolerance and eventually oxygen became a positive thing and allowed complex animals to evolve. A chemical warfare one up man ship between plants and other plants, animals and other animals and between plants and animals has always been a featured player in evolution.

 

What I am asking here is because of my wonder at how such effects became so specific rather than merely shutting down of support systems. There is some evidence that humans are behaviourally affected by certain toxins in moderately specific ways and I find this particularly fascinating especially when behaviour modification of any kind tends to be rationalized by the "victim" as coming from within, often as a conscious decision. This has awesome implications to the nature of consciousness and of self.

 

When you consider the numbers of chemical produced by the myriad of plants and animals i see no surprise that some confer specific reactions both positive and negative.

 

We unfortunately can't ask the spider why he has altered his web building design but it is a fascinating concept and mental exercise, don't you think?

 

Spiders or any other non sentient creature do not change anything because they want to, things change due to environmental pressures not conscious decisions.

[enorbet2]

Hello MoonTanMan

I think we are essentially "on the same page" and I suspect you will too once this little matter is cleared up

 

<You really exspect the estimate of when the asteriod hit to accurate to the minute or even century? >

 

Of course not! I am in no way faulting Science for being unable to nail it down more accurately. I am however specifically faulting many people's thought processes, such as those who try to disprove Evolution and substitute Intelligent Design because they can't imagine how eyes developed. One doesn't have to delve into Quantum Mechanics to find himself outside of human frame of reference. When doing so, I just think it is essential that we remind ourselves of the vastness of which we think and speak, trying to comprehend Big Ideas.

 

Back to the thread, there are two sub questions possibly important. First, do you (we) suppose animal brains consist of layers of "code" where a micro change at one level may trigger a macro action? In other words do we suppose the spider already has programming to build the web structures that are useful to wasp larvae so the change requieed is only triggering that set? or is the venom chemistry so complete that it contains complete instructions for the spider bypassing all other routines and sub-routines? Finally, while my question regarding the "asking"of spiders was not meant to be literal, how do we draw the line and determine sentience?

 

So while I can imagine, given the press and opportunity of geological time, that such venom and processes do indeed evolve quite naturally, it in no way diminishes my questions and wonder at what remains to be fully understood.

[Moontanman]

Hello MoonTanMan

I think we are essentially "on the same page" and I suspect you will too once this little matter is cleared up

 

<You really exspect the estimate of when the asteriod hit to accurate to the minute or even century? >

 

Of course not! I am in no way faulting Science for being unable to nail it down more accurately. I am however specifically faulting many people's thought processes, such as those who try to disprove Evolution and substitute Intelligent Design because they can't imagine how eyes developed. One doesn't have to delve into Quantum Mechanics to find himself outside of human frame of reference. When doing so, I just think it is essential that we remind ourselves of the vastness of which we think and speak, trying to comprehend Big Ideas.

 

Evolution of eyes is not outside the human frame of reference, just out side the restrictions of the religion of Intelligent Design as defined by creationism. Any reasonably intelligent person can understand how eyes evolved if they are given the evidence.

 

Back to the thread, there are two sub questions possibly important. First, do you (we) suppose animal brains consist of layers of "code" where a micro change at one level may trigger a macro action? In other words do we suppose the spider already has programming to build the web structures that are useful to wasp larvae so the change requieed is only triggering that set? or is the venom chemistry so complete that it contains complete instructions for the spider bypassing all other routines and sub-routines? Finally, while my question regarding the "asking"of spiders was not meant to be literal, how do we draw the line and determine sentience?

 

What are you talking about? I honestly do not understand, I know of no wasp venom that changes the behavior of spiders other than to paralyze them so they can be stored as fresh meat for wasp larvae. We humans define sentience as being self aware and able to understand as we do. We are the only example we have and we define sentience based on "us"

 

[enorbet2]

I apologize if I made it difficult to see. Perhaps this will correct that mistake.

 

Zombie Animals and the Parasites that Control Them | Unusual Organisms | DISCOVER Magazine

[enorbet2]

Regarding our provincial definition of sentience, it seems we may have a new thread.

[Moontanman]

I apologize if I made it difficult to see. Perhaps this will correct that mistake.

 

Zombie Animals and the Parasites that Control Them | Unusual Organisms | DISCOVER Magazine

 

I still do not see it, you are misreading the gallery. The wasp lays eggs, not venom in it's spider host. the larvae secrete hormones that cause the spider to make a cocoon like it does for it's own eggs. No venom was involved in this case.

[enorbet2]

I still do not see it, you are misreading the gallery. The wasp lays eggs, not venom in it's spider host. the larvae secrete hormones that cause the spider to make a cocoon like it does for it's own eggs. No venom was involved in this case.

 

Actually what I did was worse... I assumed that the wasp while injecting venom to still the spider while it laid the eggs, was directly responsible for the psychoactive substance, that it was a component of the adult's venom, that took control of the spider. Instead the wasp is indirectly responsible for the mind control since the chemical (which I would still call a venom) is actually secreted by the larvae of the wasp.

 

Hymenoepimecis argyraphaga - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Note that the cocoon is not like that which the spider makes for it's own offspring, and is altered in a way that benefits the wasp larvae. Other pages in the gallery show the degree of mind control that is possible such as in the case of the caterpillar that defends the larvae against all threats after the larvae have attached to a plant.