Theistic and atheistic influences on society

[InfiniteNow]

I don't think you understand what you are saying.

''The larger point is that our founding fathers rejected those teachings and wrote our codes and laws and documents using a philosophy which was in stark contrast to the teachings of Judaism and Christianity''

 

I'm talking morality, societal rules to live by, mores.

Considering how myopic and misinformed your posts regularly are, questor, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that it's far more likely that you misunderstand me than I misunderstand me.

 

To your point about "morals" and religion, let me touch briefly on that...

 

 

Theism is generally based on false or untestable hypotheses, and it is from those hypotheses which it draws firm conclusions. Quite frequently, though, those conclusions are way off the mark. Killing homosexuals or blowing yourself up in a crowded market are obvious examples, but let's also look at calls to stone your wife if she's not a virgin on your wedding night, or the vast tribal massacres not only sactioned by god, but downright demanded by him. Even in the new testament the treatment of slaves indicates clearly how these texts should not be used by any sane person as a source of morality. They mention how it's not only okay to have slaves, but it's also okay to beat them as long as you don't hurt their eyes or teeth. Well, I sure am glad theists have THAT pearl of ancient wisdom on which to base their behaviors and outlooks.

 

Theistic guidelines are based on Iron age tribal nonsense, and we can do far better. In various non-Christian religions, it takes the opinion of two women to equal that of one man. A woman cannot leave the house without her husband unless she is fully covered up, and she must stick to dark alleys so as not to be seen or interact with others. She cannot look anyone in the eye, nor speak, even if the intent of her words is to find help for someone who is in need. However could theists survive without such wisdom, I really can't say.

 

As for christianity, all one must do is look to books like Leviticus or Romans to see the pettiness and unpallatable instructions being provided. Most theists, however, choose to reject these teachings. If their theism and teachings from these books are the source of their morality, then how would they know to reject those clearly obscene instructions in various parts of said books? Somehow they know that those instructions are not moral, and that they should be rejected. Well, to me, it sure would appear that their sense of morality is coming from somewhere other than their theism since they are rejecting instructions based on that theism. The point being, they are picking and choosing which stories they are going to live by, so clearly it cannot be the stories themselves informing their choices.

 

I ask... name one moral action performed or one moral statement made by a theist which could not equally be performed or stated by a non-believer, a non-theist, or an athiest. Just one. Take your time. No rush.

 

All I am asking for is one example.

 

 

Now, name one immoral action performed or one immoral comment made by a theist expressly on the basis of their theism, stemming directly from the beliefs into which they've been indoctrinated. You've already thought of 3 or 4, and will have thought of more by the end of the day.

 

 

Morality does not come from theism. We are predisposed toward certain behaviors and those behaviors are shaped as we develop in our specific environment and culture. This predisposition is evidenced by numerous studies, some showing how even 3 year olds will try to comfort other children who were sad, in tears, or distressed in some way. On top of this, monkeys and other apes understand concepts of fairness and equality, as demonstrated time and again in experiment after experiment.

 

Morality doesn't need rigid structures. It stems from our evolved condition being pack animals. The dominant animal in the group sets the behaviors and those that choose not to follow them get ostracized from the group. This decreases their likelihood of survival, and also drastically decreases their reproductive potential. This logic even applies to wolf packs.

 

Morality comes from something far more profound than some fear of punishment from a trite, petty cosmic dictator, something much more beautiful. I find it much more inspiring to think that one would help the poor, or feed the hungry, or vaccinate the children of the 3rd world, or help the elderly or a young child just because they want to... just because it's the right thing to do. It limits the heroics and honorability of those acts if someone is doing it simply due to some fear of punishment, fears taught to them based on some stories written in some book thousands of years ago.... stories from which they somehow manage to pick and choose and decide which to follow and which to ignore.

 

On the other hand, the practices of theism and the beliefs which generally accompany it far too often makes people feel justified in committing disgusting and discriminatory acts, and, if you ask me, that's really no morality at all.

[pgrmdave]

I believe there is a happy medium, which both parties seem to agree upon, but from different sides.

 

The founders of the country were very influenced by the morality of the time, which was often based in Christianity (though not necessarily the Christianity of today). They did not want a religious state, but certain parts of the philosophy (that God created mankind, and thus we are all equal regardless of birth) were understood to simply be right and good. They also recognized that individuals are often NOT moral, and so they created a system of government in which it was not possible for any one person to gain too much power, limiting the damage that could be done.

 

Also, there were many laws which were based on Christianity (there have been laws restricting people working on Sunday, for instance) and so it's not wrong to say that historically, Christian morality has played a large part in United States law and policy. The fact that the only National Holiday which is also a religious holiday is Christmas is a good example of this. (2008 Federal Holidays)

 

However, this does not translate into that being a good, or even necessary thing, any more than pointing out that the US has a history of racist laws means that we should continue them, or look to them for tradition. It simply is something of which to be aware.

 

Really though, this tangent seems to have no bearing on the topic - how do liberals and conservatives approach issues differently? Why is it that something that seems so blindingly obvious to a smart liberal isn't so to an intelligent conservative, and vice versa? I know that I once read a study that showed that Republicans tended to be most concerned with politicians being 'good people' while Democrats tended to be most concerned with politicians being 'smart people'. Is one really more important than the other? Do you want a good, dumb person in power? Or an intelligent, but immoral person in power?

[pgrmdave]

I ask... name one moral action performed or one moral statement made by a theist which could not equally be performed or stated by a non-believer, a non-theist, or an athiest. Just one. Take your time. No rush.

 

All I am asking for is one example.

 

Well now, that's a silly argument. Name one immoral action performer or one immoral statement made by an atheist, a non-believer, or a non-theist which would not equally be performed or stated by a theist.

 

People are people, and they make choices. Some are good, some are bad, but typically the best and worst of us are not really constrained by religion or lack thereof. Stalin wasn't religious, but that didn't stop him from being cruel. The Spanish Inquisition was religious, but that didn't stop them from being cruel. Likewise, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was religious, but that didn't stop him from being good, nor has atheisms prevented anybody from being good. (...actually, I don't know many great leaders who were atheists (not that they don't exist, I just don't know of them - I know a great many scientists are atheists, but not too many leaders, so please provide examples :shrug: )

[InfiniteNow]

Well now, that's a silly argument.

Only if you don't comprehend the argument actually being made. If religion is the source of morals, then atheists and non-theists (even people who never practiced religion) wouldn't have them, yet they do.

[pgrmdave]

Bad logic there.

 

Religion is not THE source of morals. It is A source of morals.

 

And again, we're off topic. I might have to split this thread off, because as interesting as this is, it has nothing to do with the differences between conservatives and liberals.

[jackson33]

Dave; There is little 'moral' in the foundations of any religion. Frankly most resembled dictatorial text with rather dire consequences for failure to abide.

 

Please don't split off. First its relative to the thread topic IMO and it would die in religion.

 

Infinite; If questor had said the founders were a religious bunch, would you have accepted that premise....?

 

The same folks that wrote the Constitution, also wrote the Declaration of Independence, which is full of quotes inferring a higher being or GOD. The Constitution was written explicitly to remove Religion from government, which they felt was a major problem in England. Those founders were from all area of a 200 year old society that came here to practice many different religions and from places this was not allowed. There could be no way any consensus could/would form to begin with as were many other topics including slavery.

 

Society over the years since, by the way through an 'Evangelical Movement' in the 1800's has managed to maintain this separation, forming what I like to call a Traditional and Cultural foundation. Conservatism has been the last home of home for those ultra religious folks, holding to the idea this country from the beginning has been a Christen Nation. They have elected leaders, in their local communities to represent themselves at the Federal Level, by far that were/are Christan. Not because they are told over and over again... anything, or some desire to change anything but because thats who they are.

[pgrmdave]

Dave; There is little 'moral' in the foundations of any religion. Frankly most resembled dictatorial text with rather dire consequences for failure to abide.

 

I actually find a lot of Christian morality rather wonderful. And I find a lot of it rather terrible. To be fair, any moral philosophy which has been added to and expanded over thousands of years is bound to have some good points and some bad points. There is no reason why non-believers should throw out the baby with the bath water - it's much easier for someone who doesn't believe to choose the parts of the bible that seem good (like turning the other cheek, loving your neighbor, and not stealing) while rejecting the parts that seem wrong (like killing homosexuals).

[jackson33]

I actually find a lot of Christian morality rather wonderful. And I find a lot of it rather terrible. To be fair, any moral philosophy which has been added to and expanded over thousands of years is bound to have some good points and some bad points. There is no reason why non-believers should throw out the baby with the bath water - it's much easier for someone who doesn't believe to choose the parts of the bible that seem good (like turning the other cheek, loving your neighbor, and not stealing) while rejecting the parts that seem wrong (like killing homosexuals).

 

At what point does acceptance, become intolerable to the masses or somehow gain acceptance. Society and laws govern only what the masses can accept or your back in the mid-evil period when a person made/enforced these decisions, many time a religion. Over half the world peoples, still live in that period today and in our world we simple refer to this as fundamentalism. I see nothing moral, in degrading women for thought, arranged marriages or rule by religious doctrine. Killing people for a whole lot less than sexual preference, is a matter of fact...

 

Remember laws and the industrialized world and their particular form of Democracies are relatively new, even if taken back to the English 'Magna Carta' 1215AD. In the US, we can NOW accept Gay/Lesbian as a life style, probably because its so prevalent. We no longer kill anyone for beliefs, but we tolerate to the limits of law. There are many things down your road in life that will test your limits...

[pgrmdave]

At what point does loving your neighbor become bad? How about not murdering? Or not stealing?

 

My point is simply that there are bad aspects of religion, but there are also good points. Why are you so bent on being against religion? It gets a bad rap, but there have been instances of it doing great things as well as terrible things. Would you say that the US is an evil nation because we killed the Native Americans? How about Britain for its colonization? How about Italy for the Roman atrocities? The Iranians for the Persian empires problems? Russia for the gulags? Any powerful force has done good things and bad things - in fact, I would postulate that the more powerful a force, the more great and terrible things it has done.

[questor]

Freez, I assume you were brought up in a moral vacuum, with no churches around you, no nice people who were religious and no religious guidance from your parents or relatives. You never went to bible school or studied religion of any sort. Somewhere a group of evil Christians or Jews tried to do bad things to you. This ,of course, turned you against religion and the idea of that any good has ever come from church people. Now you think that no teachings of morality could have or ever has emanated from those connected with religion. It is more important to criticise those who hurt you or those who practice bad religion than to understand the truth. The truth is that moral laws started when men began to live in social groups, they influenced our founders and the code of law we have today. Read the Code of Hammurabi.

The Code of Hammurabi.

Just because there are some con men and connivers connected with religion, does not mean the teachings of religion are all bad. Are you not able to see the difference? You cannot convince me you were brought up without religious influence, as were your family, as is everyone. What you made of that influence is what you are today.

[pgrmdave]

Questor - there's no need for a personal attack, especially on someone's morality, or the morality of their family and friends. It's not something that I want to see on Hypography.

[modest]

Religion is based on a false hypothesis from which it draws firm conclusions that are often way off the mark. Killing homosexuals or blowing yourself up in a crowded market are obvious examples.

 

Theism is generally based on false or untestable hypotheses, and it is from those hypotheses which it draws firm conclusions. Quite frequently, though, those conclusions are way off the mark. Killing homosexuals or blowing yourself up in a crowded market are obvious examples

 

Was I just plagiarized? That would be so freakin' awesome! :shrug:

 

~modest :)

[pgrmdave]

Good catch modest! :shrug:

 

Maybe now Infinite will have to come up with his own words to describe how religion has absolutely nothing good attached to it.

 

I really question the sanity of someone who cannot see that religion has helped people, as much as I question the sanity of someone who cannot see that religion has hurt people. In the end, it is not religion or lack thereof that is harmful, but people. If I adhere to a religion that tells me to help the poor and kill homosexuals, and I decide to ignore the part about killing homosexuals but I work tirelessly to help the poor, has my religion hurt anybody? Has it helped anybody? Does it even matter?

[InfiniteNow]

Was I just plagiarized? That would be so freakin' awesome! :)

 

~modest :)

 

The word is paraphrased. ;) As you will see, when I made my original presentation of the above in that other thread, I quoted your words. Since quoting your words from that other thread in this thread would have been odd, I summarized them and added them to my opening.

 

 

 

Good catch modest! :D

 

Maybe now Infinite will have to come up with his own words to describe how religion has absolutely nothing good attached to it.

 

Dave - You can shove it somewhere that's dark and colonic. Those were my words. I'm sorry you cannot see past your own biases. Further, nice attempt at strawman. I NEVER said that religion has nothing good attached to it, let alone ABSOLUTELY nothing good.

 

My point was to point out that questor was wrong in stating that the US was founded as a Christian nation on christian principles. That is an often repeated, often heard, often expressed, often accepted, but quite wrong assertion.

 

Some people might call such an assertion a blatant lie. I was a bit softer on him by suggesting it was mere wish thinking, since the facts so clearly dispute his claim.

 

I also went on to show how morality may be influenced by religion, but does not stem from it. My points are clear and are an accurate reflection of reality. You'd do well to try harder at understanding them.

[Thunderbird]

Freez, I assume you were brought up in a moral vacuum, with no churches around you, no nice people who were religious and no religious guidance from your parents or relatives. You never went to bible school or studied religion of any sort. Somewhere a group of evil Christians or Jews tried to do bad things to you. This ,of course, turned you against religion and the idea of that any good has ever come from church people. Now you think that no teachings of morality could have or ever has emanated from those connected with religion. It is more important to criticise those who hurt you or those who practice bad religion than to understand the truth. The truth is that moral laws started when men began to live in social groups, they influenced our founders and the code of law we have today. Read the Code of Hammurabi.

The Code of Hammurabi.

Just because there are some con men and connivers connected with religion, does not mean the teachings of religion are all bad. Are you not able to see the difference? You cannot convince me you were brought up without religious influence, as were your family, as is everyone. What you made of that influence is what you are today.

The code of Hammurabi has little to do with Christian doctrine. Christ was not big on conforming to Hebrew governing Religious law his prophets paid with their lives because that was a secondary concern to what Christ was teaching, which was not laws of the land but how to live as a human in relation to god and his fellow men. "Give Caesar what is Caesar's” Western political philosophy has its origins in ancient Greek society, when city-states were experimenting with various forms of political organization. I go to sunday school every week so do f**k with me. That was a joke LOL:hihi::):)

[freeztar]

Freez, I assume...

 

You know what they say about when you assume...

 

As irrelevant as my morals are to the topic of this thread, I still feel like I must correct your assumptions (it's the right thing to do).

 

I was born and raised Lutheran. I was baptized and went to Sunday school every Sunday. I also went through communion and confirmation. I was a member of the church choir and an alter boy for a while. I stopped going to church regularly when I was about 14 or 15. So, half my life has been with the church, and half has not.

 

So, what does this have to do with Conservative intuition, or lack thereof?

[questor]

I am not concerned with your personal morals, as I don't know anything about you. I am speaking to the fact you deny the centuries of societal interaction that produced societal values and morals that we live by. I don't know why you persist in calling them Christian morals when societies all over the world exhibit essentially the same ideals. The fact you were exposed to religion ( as were your parents) at an early age shows how your developing brain was impressed with what you call ''common sense''. Just because you reject religion now doesn't mean you didn't learn from it.