The OMZ and O2 sources above/below

[Turtle]

All significant free oxygen comes from biology, there is no other significant source for free oxygen, if you know of one tell me. UV disassociation is not a significant source of oxygen, it produces most if not all ozone but ozone is not O2 and if you took all the ozone in the atmosphere and turned it into O2 it still would not be a significant amount of oxygen. What you are saying about undersea volcanoes is a straw man argument and has nothing to do with what we are talking about. I have given the accepted source for under sea oxygen, it is an accepted fact. If you have evidence to the contrary please enlighten me. No known process, expected process, or theorized process, produces any significant free oxygen in our natural environment other than biology, that's as fuzzy as I can make that statement.

 

Oh OK;we can close the thread & everyone can go home 'cause it's all figured out and we know what discoveries not to expect. :eek2: Good luck with that. :naughty:

[Turtle]

Oh OK;we can close the thread & everyone can go home 'cause it's all figured out and we know what discoveries not to expect. :eek2: Good luck with that. :naughty:

 

PS Significant or not, lightning produces free oxygen without any biota.

The air has been suddenly heated up from 300 to 25,000 K, and extra particles have been produced, in the form of free nitrogen atoms, free oxygen atoms, all sort of atomic and molecular ions and electrons. ...

[email protected]

[Turtle]

Here's another known process that frees oxygen without biota:

 

In the early 1700s, chemists began to find out more about air, but in a somewhat roundabout way. For example, in 1771 and 1772, Scheele studied the effect of heat on a number of different compounds. In one experiment, he used silver carbonate (Ag2CO3), mercury carbonate (HgCO3), and magnesium nitrate (Mg(NO3)2). When he heated these compounds, he found that a gas was produced. He then studied the properties of that gas. He found that flames burned brightly in the gas. He also found that animals could live when placed in the gas. Without knowing it, Scheele had discovered oxygen. (See sidebar on Scheele in the chlorine entry in Volume 1.)

 

Oxygen (revised) ? FREE Oxygen (revised) Information | Encyclopedia.com: Find Oxygen (revised) Research

 

:naughty:

[Turtle]

Another. >> Free oxygen can be produced radiolytically.

Hydrogen and oxygen are produced by radiolysis. Radioactive gases from the coolant are formed during nuclear reactions of neutrons and protons with the oxygen of water. During the fission of the fuel elements, radioactive isotopes are produced of krypton and xenon. The production rate for all gases is dependent on the output of the reactor.

 

PROCESS OF RADIOACTIVE WASTE GASES - Patent 3871841

[freeztar]

Here's a very good article on OMZs:

 

http://levin.ucsd.edu/research/Am%20Sci%202002.pdf

 

No mention of O2 sources other than the mechanism MTM brought up.

 

And here's an interesting quote:

 

Either way you look at it, oxygen is the big dog in town - it accounts for 46.6% of the earth's crust by mass (and 94% of it by volume!).

http://jersey.uoregon.edu/~mstrick/AskGeoMan/geoQuerry24.html

[Turtle]

Here's a very good article on OMZs:

 

http://levin.ucsd.edu/research/Am%20Sci%202002.pdf

 

No mention of O2 sources other than the mechanism MTM brought up.

 

And here's an interesting quote:

 

Oxygen and Silica

 

Yes; I know Moontan hasn't mentioned any of the processes I have. You know... the ones he says don't exist?

 

In addition, we better not exclude the possibility of some free oxygen being generated underwater by electrolysis. I've not found a good link searching for 'spontaneous electrolysis', but in the process of looking I found one possible mechanism for that, which is underwater lightning. Not a lot on that either, but here's some starters. >>

 

IEEE Xplore - Login

 

A Lightning Strike of an Underwater Explosion Plume

 

http://www.dosits.org/gallery/mp3/light.mp3

 

http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/may102006/1247.pdf

[Moontanman]

Turtle, I am surprised at you, you act like this is a personal thing. I have said over and over again that no significant oxygen is produced by anything but photosynthesis. I didn't say there were no processes that could produce oxygen just no processes that could produce oxygen in significant quantities. I stand by that absolutely. So far you haven't demonstrated any oxygen production beyond even trace amounts. All of the mechanisms you keep pointing out are insignificant and in the real world would make no detectable oxygen. If the undersea environment had to depend on any of these sources for oxygen there would be none at all. Chemical processes would remove oxygen produced this way as fast as it was produced. Until you can show some way for oxygen to be made in anything but extreme trace amounts I stand by what I said. Oxygen is a very reactive gas, the reason the earth is made up of so much oxygen is because it is locked into chemical combination with almost everything. This oxygen is for the most part very tightly bound chemically. It takes lots of energy to break oxygen out of it's chemical bonds, life does this with light and catalysts. Only life can do this on any scale even approaching the oxygen found in Earths atmosphere. If we could analyze the light from a distant planet and find free oxygen in it's spectrum it would be absolute proof of life. Free oxygen = life, yes life can exist with out free oxygen but oxygen in large quantities cannot exist with out life. No other chemical signal could show life so surely. Methane is the second sure sign of life but not as sure as oxygen. Non life processes can make methane but not free oxygen. I am not being stubborn or some how making an unreasonable assumption. Chemical reactions can only work in certain ways, there is no reason to think there is some mysterious chemical reaction we don't know about that could produce oxygen in the amounts seen on the earth other than life.

[Turtle]

Turtle, I am surprised at you, you act like this is a personal thing. I have said over and over again that no significant oxygen is produced by anything but photosynthesis. I didn't say there were no processes that could produce oxygen just no processes that could produce oxygen in significant quantities. I stand by that absolutely. So far you haven't demonstrated any oxygen production beyond even trace amounts. All of the mechanisms you keep pointing out are insignificant and in the real world would make no detectable oxygen. If the undersea environment had to depend on any of these sources for oxygen there would be none at all. Chemical processes would remove oxygen produced this way as fast as it was produced. Until you can show some way for oxygen to be made in anything but extreme trace amounts I stand by what I said. Oxygen is a very reactive gas, the reason the earth is made up of so much oxygen is because it is locked into chemical combination with almost everything. This oxygen is for the most part very tightly bound chemically. It takes lots of energy to break oxygen out of it's chemical bonds, life does this with light and catalysts. Only life can do this on any scale even approaching the oxygen found in Earths atmosphere. If we could analyze the light from a distant planet and find free oxygen in it's spectrum it would be absolute proof of life. Free oxygen = life, yes life can exist with out free oxygen but oxygen in large quantities cannot exist with out life. No other chemical signal could show life so surely. Methane is the second sure sign of life but not as sure as oxygen. Non life processes can make methane but not free oxygen. I am not being stubborn or some how making an unreasonable assumption. Chemical reactions can only work in certain ways, there is no reason to think there is some mysterious chemical reaction we don't know about that could produce oxygen in the amounts seen on the earth other than life.

 

Surprise is my middle name. :) You overstated the case, I gave my corrections. :doh: I'll leave it at this:

Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.

:)

[Moontanman]

Surprise is my middle name. :) You overstated the case, I gave my corrections. :doh: I'll leave it at this:

:)

 

Turtle, are trying to win this discussion with ridicule? You gave no corrections to my premise that no significant oxygen is produced in the natural environment by any mechanism other than biology. None! You gave some examples of insignificant oxygen production but in no way do they affect my premise. Why are you trying to ridicule me on this, do you know of some mechanism that could produce free oxygen in any significant amounts? If so tell me if not don't try to bluster around about possible unknowns. You have made a claim that is beyond accepted science, either put up or shut up.

[freeztar]

I think you both have valid points. By challenging each other, you're not really going to accomplish anything. Turtle can not produce evidence of a significant source of deep sea O2 production, and Moontanman can't state that there is no other significant source of O2 production in the deep sea, with absolute certainty. (though I do think that MTM's logic is sound)

[Moontanman]

I think you both have valid points. By challenging each other, you're not really going to accomplish anything. Turtle can not produce evidence of a significant source of deep sea O2 production, and Moontanman can't state that there is no other significant source of O2 production in the deep sea, with absolute certainty. (though I do think that MTM's logic is sound)

 

I disagree freezy, I am absolutely certain there is no deep sea production of significant free oxygen. Any non biological production of oxygen is tiny and immediately consumed by oxidation. Only biology can produce oxygen faster than it is consumed by oxidation. Oxygen does not exist in our atmosphere because of it's abundance in the earth, or because it is left over due to now here else to go. Oxygen is consumed very fast by the natural environment. If all biological production of oxygen were to cease oxygen would disappear from our atmosphere in a few million years with out photosynthesis.

 

Earth's atmosphere - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

This modern atmosphere has a composition which is enforced by oceanic blue-green algae as well as geological processes. O2 does not remain naturally free in an atmosphere but tends to be consumed (by inorganic chemical reactions, and by animals, bacteria, and even land plants at night), and CO2 tends to be produced by respiration and decomposition and oxidation of organic matter. Oxygen would vanish within a few million years by chemical reactions, and CO2 dissolves easily in water and would be gone in millennia if not replaced. Both are maintained by biological productivity and geological forces seemingly working hand-in-hand to maintain reasonably steady levels over millions of years

 

 

The Earth's Atmosphere

 

The oxygen so characteristic of our atmosphere was almost all produced by plants (cyanobacteria or, more colloquially, blue-green algae). Thus, the present composition of the atmosphere is 79% nitrogen, 20% oxygen, and 1% other gases.

 

Oxygen buildup

 

The atmosphere - origin and structure

 

Volcanoes Key To Earth's Oxygen Atmosphere

 

I really tried to find any indication of any process that might make oxygen on the Earth but I could not find even one. Oxygen comes from photosynthesis, all other possible sources are tiny and in some cases self defeating, like photo dissociation of water by hard UV light.

[Turtle]

You keep saying 'significant' and for one that is meaningles scientifically (no quantification) and for two it is only relative in time as regards the biota. Before the biota added an excess of oxygen, the other 4 sources I gave were significant.

 

Regardless of what happens to the free oxygen these sources produce, or how long it takes, they go on and likely would if the biota dies. Moreover insisting there is nothing left to discover is rather silly. :doh: This thread was spawned from the question of animals, but it is not about them in basis; this is about oxygen in all its glory. :)

[Moontanman]

You keep saying 'significant' and for one that is meaningles scientifically (no quantification) and for two it is only relative in time as regards the biota. Before the biota added an excess of oxygen, the other 4 sources I gave were significant.

 

Regardless of what happens to the free oxygen these sources produce, or how long it takes, they go on and likely would if the biota dies. Moreover insisting there is nothing left to discover is rather silly. :doh: This thread was spawned from the question of animals, but it is not about them in basis; this is about oxygen in all its glory. :)

 

 

When I say significant I was talking about the amounts of oxygen found in the deep sea which was where this started. All the sources of oxygen you noted would not add more than a small fraction of the oxygen now present even if it wasn't removed as fast as it it produced. The sources of oxygen you note would not have any appreciable effect on the Earth or it's environment. With the sources you note the Earth would still be an anoxic environment. The sources you noted could not even come close to producing the oxygen in the deep sea (much less the oxygen in the atmosphere) how are they significant to the discussion? I have never said oxygen could not be produced at all, you were originally talking about oxygen at the levels found in the deep ocean. It is very disingenuous of you to say that your noted sources of oxygen could be responsible to the deep ocean oxygen when it is plain they cannot be. With out the biological production of oxygen it would only be a tiny and transient fraction of the earths atmosphere and even less in the deep ocean environment. All the available evidence backs me up on this. There is no evidence of any other source for the levels of oxygen found in the deep ocean or the atmosphere. I will not back down from this just to please you, if you can show some other source for the level of oxygen present in these environments please do so.