Moontanman Posted August 27, 2008 Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 Moderator Note: These posts were moved from the thread Your favorite "living fossil" The Vampire Squid which makes it home at nearly 3,000 feet under the sea, a depth at which the concentration of oxygen hovers around 3 percent, the absolute limit for aerobic metabolism. The vampire squid is very cool but where did you get that quote from? 3000 feet the absolute limit for aerobic metabolism? that is simply not true, it's bullshit, fish are found at the bottom of the deepest area in the ocean, more than five miles deep. all areas of the ocean no matter how deep have complex animal life. All complex animal life breathes via aerobic or oxygen respiration. There lots of fish, big fish that live deeper than 3000 feet. the deep ocean has plenty of oxygen, it's very cold but oxygen level are high enough for oxygen respiration. Cephalopods use copper in their blood and cannot survive in low oxygen environments. this "blue blood" is one of the reasons they find it difficult to compete with red blooded fishes. If not for this handicap Cephalopods might have totally dominated the ocean and pushed fishes into a minor role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted August 27, 2008 Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 the vampire squid is very cool but where did you get that quote from? 3000 feet the absolute limit for aerobic metabolism? That is simply not true, it's bullshit, fish are found at the bottom of the deepest area in the ocean, more than five miles deep. All areas of the ocean no matter how deep have complex animal life. All complex animal life breathes via aerobic or oxygen respiration. There lots of fish, big fish that live deeper than 3000 feet. The deep ocean has plenty of oxygen, it's very cold but oxygen level are high enough for oxygen respiration. Cephalopods use copper in their blood and cannot survive in low oxygen environments. This "blue blood" is one of the reasons they find it difficult to compete with red blooded fishes. If not for this handicap cephalopods might have totally dominated the ocean and pushed fishes into a minor role.have to get back to you on that, it is acurate info however.e vampire squid is an extreme example of a deep-sea cephalopod, thought to reside at aphotic (lightless) depths from 600-900 metres (2,000-3,000 feet) or more. Within this region of the world's oceans is a discrete habitat known as the oxygen minimum zone (omz). Within the omz oxygen saturation is too low to support aerobic metabolism in most higher organisms. nonetheless, the vampire squid is able to live and breathe normally in the omz at oxygen saturations as low as 3%; a feat no other cephalopod, and few other animals, can claim.In order to cope with life in the suffocating depths, vampire squid have developed several radical adaptations. Of all deep-sea cephalopods, their mass-specific metabolic rate is the lowest. Their blue blood's hemocyanin binds and transports oxygen more efficiently than in other cephalopods (seibel et al. 1999), aided by gills with especially large surface area. The animals have weak musculature but maintain agility and buoyancy with little effort thanks to sophisticated statocysts (balancing organs akin to a human's inner ear) and ammonium-rich gelatinous tissues closely matching the density of the surrounding seawaterwikipedia, the free encyclopedia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted August 27, 2008 Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 The quote came from Popular Science website Moontanman Living Fossils | Popular Science They have a 12 pic gallery of "living fossils" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted August 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 The quote came from Popular Science website Moontanman Living Fossils | Popular Science They have a 12 pic gallery of "living fossils" Well, Popular Science has been known to make mistakes before. trust me on this, 3000 feet is not a low oxygen environment. The worlds oceans support complex life down to the very bottom in every ocean and at every depth. Even Cephalopods are found in water miles deep. I'm not sure what they have mixed up but something is screwy with this article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeztar Posted August 27, 2008 Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 trust me on this, 3000 feet is not a low oxygen environment. According to the wiki on the oxygen minimum zone, 3000 ft. can be an anoxic zone. They use the range of 200-1000 m depending on local conditions. From the best I can tell with some searching, other zones can exist below the OMZ though I'm unsure how the oxygen gets there (oxygen vents?). The worlds oceans support complex life down to the very bottom in every ocean and at every depth. Even Cephalopods are found in water miles deep. Indeed. Again, I think the OMZ is (or can be) a middle zone. Unfortunately it's hard to find info on this so far though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted August 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 According to the wiki on the oxygen minimum zone, 3000 ft. can be an anoxic zone. They use the range of 200-1000 m depending on local conditions. From the best I can tell with some searching, other zones can exist below the OMZ though I'm unsure how the oxygen gets there (oxygen vents?). Indeed. Again, I think the OMZ is (or can be) a middle zone. Unfortunately it's hard to find info on this so far though. Ok I see the problem, the article was worded as though below 3000 feet there was no oxygen when actually their is a small zone in some parts of the tropical ocean from 200 to 1000 meters where oxygen is low due to organic decomposition. Oxygen is transfered to deep waters by oxygenated cold water from the poles sinking and traveling back toward the equator. This allows certain areas to be stagnant pools above the deep oxygen layers and below the surface oxygen layers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 According to the wiki on the oxygen minimum zone, 3000 ft. can be an anoxic zone. They use the range of 200-1000 m depending on local conditions. From the best I can tell with some searching, other zones can exist below the OMZ though I'm unsure how the oxygen gets there (oxygen vents?). ... Yes, possibly. :D I went a lookin' for tube worms & black smokers, as the tube worms have potential for classification as living fossils. In the hunt I stumbled on this bit about how/where they get their Oxygen: >> ;) ...Yum! So how do tubeworms get their food? Their survival depends on a symbiotic relationship with the billions of bacteria that live inside them. These bacteria convert the chemicals that come from the hydrothermal vents into food for the worm. This chemical-based food making process is called chemosynthesis. ...Planet Ocean - Learning Adventures Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted August 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 Yes, possibly. :D I went a lookin' for tube worms & black smokers, as the tube worms have potential for classification as living fossils. In the hunt I stumbled on this bit about how/where they get their Oxygen: >> ;) Planet Ocean - Learning Adventures They get their oxygen from the same place you get your oxygen, photosynthesis. They get their food from chemo-synthesis. Many people like to talk about how these under water ecosystems are independent of the sun but only the bacteria are independent from the sun, the complex animals are still dependent on the sun for oxygen. Many people who were speculating on life in the seas of Europa had to scale back the idea of complex animals in that ocean when it was pointed out they would have to exist without oxygen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 They get their oxygen from the same place you get your oxygen, photosynthesis. They get their food from chemo-synthesis. Many people like to talk about how these under water ecosystems are independent of the sun but only the bacteria are independent from the sun, the complex animals are still dependent on the sun for oxygen. Many people who were speculating on life in the seas of Europa had to scale back the idea of complex animals in that ocean when it was pointed out they would have to exist without oxygen. I think you are mistaken in regards to the tube worms. :D Tube worms get their all from the bacteria that live inside them. They have no mouth, no gut, no lung, no anus. Now if the bacteria are chemosynthetic, then aren't the tube worms also by extension chemosynthetic? Perhaps you are arguing that the Oxygen in the minerals at black smokers & their ilk originated in the atmosphere? :) ;) bolding mine:Deep below the surface of the oceans, beyond the levels reached by sunlight, live abundant and diverse communities of animals. Tiny microbes or bacteria called Archaea, fantastic red-tipped, white tube worms, gigantic clams, mussels, crabs, shrimp, starfish and deep-water skates all live at deep sea hydrothermal vents. All of these animals depend on a food chain that does not rely directly on the sun or onphotosynthesis (the production of food by plants using sunlight), as most other life on the planet does. Instead, the tiny Archaea which form the basis for this unique food chain, derive energy and nutrition from the hot, mineral-rich waters venting from the sulfide structures. The Archaea use sulfide instead of sunlight to create food, a process analogous to photosynthesis called chemosynthesis. ...http://www.amnh.org/nationalcenter/expeditions/blacksmokers/life_forms.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted August 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 I think you are mistaken in regards to the tube worms. :D Tube worms get their all from the bacteria that live inside them. They have no mouth, no gut, no lung, no anus. Now if the bacteria are chemosynthetic, then aren't the tube worms also by extension chemosynthetic? Perhaps you are arguing that the Oxygen in the minerals at black smokers & their ilk originated in the atmosphere? :) ;) No, the tube worms eat the excess carbohydrates made by the bacteria, they then use oxygen dissolved in the sea water to metabolize the food made by the bacteria. an amazing number of people including scientists make this mistake. This has become an assumed part of science even though it is wrong. Only the bacteria are chemo-synthetic, the worms still need oxygen like any other complex animal. The people who first reported this knew what they were talking about but many of the people who later repeated this phenomenon misunderstood and this misunderstanding has been passed around so much very few people know what is really going on. Oxygen, all complex animals have to have it, it is produced by plants using the sun. No other process makes any significant amounts of free oxygen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 No, the tube worms eat the excess carbohydrates made by the bacteria, they then use oxygen dissolved in the sea water to metabolize the food made by the bacteria. an amazing number of people including scientists make this mistake. This has become an assumed part of science even though it is wrong. Only the bacteria are chemo-synthetic, the worms still need oxygen like any other complex animal. The people who first reported this knew what they were talking about but many of the people who later repeated this phenomenon misunderstood and this misunderstanding has been passed around so much very few people know what is really going on. Oxygen, all complex animals have to have it, it is produced by plants using the sun. No other process makes any significant amounts of free oxygen. I'd like to see some sources, as what you say runs counter to everything I have read on the subject both today & previously. Pony up. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted August 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 The bright red color of the plume structures results from several extraordinarily complex hemoglobins found in them, which contain 24 or 144 globin chains (presumably each including associated heme structures). These tube worm hemoglobins are remarkable for being able to carry oxygen in the presence of sulfide, and indeed do also carry sulfide, without being completely "poisoned" or inhibited by this molecule, as hemoglobins in most other species are. Giant tube worm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia How do tube worms breathe down there in that environment? Do they respire aerobically? Brittany Janz , Anacortes High School, Anacortes, WA (Mrs. Swanson’s class) Hello, Brittany, Sounds like you’ve been studying how cells work. As you know every cell in an organism needs energy for metabolism. They need several things to do this. Two of them are an energy-rich compound and an electron acceptor, like oxygen, that helps release the energy in the compound. Human cells get much of their energy from energy-rich glucose when it is broken down with the help of oxygen. Oxygen is one of several substances that help release energy by accepting electrons. As I think you know, when oxygen is used as an electron acceptor we call this process aerobic respiration. How does this apply to those weird and wonderful tube worms near hydrothermal vents? First of all these amazing organisms can’t eat for themselves since they don’t have a mouth or a digestive track. They depend instead on the food from tiny bacteria living within them in a special tissue called a trophosome. The bacteria manufacture food from the sulfide compounds in the hydrothermal fluid and share some of it with their host. The tube worm does its part by delivering oxygen to the bacteria by means of a well-developed circulatory system that includes the bright red plume that collects oxygen from the water. Because the oxygen-carrying compound, hemoglobin, is the same one we humans use, the color of tubeworm blood is bright red like ours. And since they (and their symbiotic bacteria) are using oxygen as an electron acceptor, we would consider this aerobic respiration. VISIONS '05/questions/Recent Questions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 Giant tube worm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The bright red color of the plume structures results from several extraordinarily complex hemoglobins found in them, which contain 24 or 144 globin chains (presumably each including associated heme structures). These tube worm hemoglobins are remarkable for being able to carry oxygen in the presence of sulfide, and indeed do also carry sulfide, without being completely "poisoned" or inhibited by this molecule, as hemoglobins in most other species are. VISIONS '05/questions/Recent Questions Mmmmm...moderately convincing. :D I'll get my saddle. :) However, sulphides are what? SO2? Does this oxygen remain bound to the sulphur or does it get into the animal energy business along with O that's in the water? ;) ...These deep sea vents and the entire cycling of seawater through the upper3 km of the Earth's crust are powered by the consecutive cooling-contractionand warming-expansion processes. In comparison to the weathering cycleand mineral dispersion by runoff from the continents, the hydrothermalcycle is only about 0.5% of the total river flow but about 200 times higherin mineral content (Edmond and Von Damm, 1983)...http://dge.stanford.edu/SCOPE/SCOPE_39/SCOPE_39_3.2_Jannasch_181-190.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted August 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 Mmmmm...moderately convincing. :D I'll get my saddle. :) However, sulphides are what? SO2? Does this oxygen remain bound to the sulphur or does it get into the animal energy business along with O that's in the water? ;) http://dge.stanford.edu/SCOPE/SCOPE_39/SCOPE_39_3.2_Jannasch_181-190.pdf Sulfides are sulfur hydrogen compounds H2S, sulfates are sulfur oxygen compounds. the oxygen being used for respiration is O2 from the water. H2S is used by the bacteria, it comes from the vents, oxygen comes from the water and from the atmosphere provided by plants. the bacteria directly in the vents do not use O2, they are anaerobic. I'm not completely clear about the bacteria in the worms, i would think they are anaerobic as well and the worms use O2 to "eat" the food the worms make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeztar Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 I'm very familiar with [ce]H2S[/ce] production in anaerobic conditions, but I'm not familiar with bacteria that utilize [ce]H2S[/ce]. Can you recommend some material I could read regarding this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted August 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 I'm very familiar with [ce]H2S[/ce] production in anaerobic conditions, but I'm not familiar with bacteria that utilize [ce]H2S[/ce]. Can you recommend some material I could read regarding this? Purple sulfur bacteria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Green sulfur bacteria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Bacterial Solutions to Hydrogen Sulfide Odors Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeztar Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 Thank you. :hyper: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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