Science and religion should call a truce

[Moontanman]

I think it's time for The so called battle between science and religion to pull back the troops and look at what is happening. Both have allowed the discussion to degenerated into nothing but a pissing contest. No one can win and everyone is getting wet. Why is it so hard to simply recognize that science and religion simply cannot be used to prove or disprove each other? Religion does not give us any insight into the way the natural world works or even any real details of how the universe came to be or any of the steps leading up to the present. Religion doesn't provide any insight on these things, it doesn't even try. All the claims of the religious about how the universe works have little or no basis in any religious texts. Religion has tried to use it's writings to support everything from the flat earth to an Earth just six thousand years old. No where are these claims actually explicitly made, they are just reasoned out by by people with a need to interpret things to make their own ideas seem all powerful.

 

Science on the other hand has no say what so ever about the morals of society or how a society should be run or even why a society should be run one way or another. Science makes no claims about an afterlife or heaven or hell. Science cannot make claims about the super natural. When science claims to be able to prove religion false what they are really saying is they can prove one persons interpretations of what the religion says cannot be supported by available data. Science cannot prove religion to be bunk and it makes science look bad to claim this is so.

 

Religion cannot prove anything to be true beyond any doubt without faith, faith has no basis in science. Faith is beyond science, not better or more important just not with in the description of science. Religion is also outside science, it is based on faith not proof. Proof of religion would remove faith and that would remove religion. Our society works better when the religion and science stay with in their own realms. Science keeps religion honest, when science is allowed to play it's part religion cannot control people with arbitrary statements about things religion has no handle on at all. If not for science people would still be burned at the stake because they didn't agree with the false reality people try to use religion to justify. Science helps to keep religion from becoming an out of control monster. Science is the source of technology and technology makes this life better for everyone including the religious. Religion allows people to make a moral choices about how science and technology should be used and keeps technology from becoming an out of control monster.

 

What it boils down to is neither side has the last word on reality. Science is working toward the last word and religion is waiting for the last word to be handed down from heaven. Until one or the other occurs it makes sense to stop squabbling and to to work together toward a better world. If religion would simply stop trying to dictate science and if science would stop trying to say religion is bunk these energies could be turned to more constructive directions. Egos should be checked at the door:naughty:

[InfiniteNow]

Religion needs to die, and my stance has little if anything to do with my love of science, and everything to do with my love of progress and critical thinking.

[Moontanman]

Religion needs to die, and my stance has little if anything to do with my love of science, and everything to do with my love of progress and critical thinking.

 

None the less I can't see how continuing to fight something based on faith can possibly be a win/win situation. Arguing religion is always a loose/loose situation, add the emotional basis that most people feel when confronted with the possibility of being labeled as some how atheistic (even when their belief isn't very strong or even present at all) it's doubtful if religion will ever let go of it's strangle hold on the majority of the population. People of reason should be insightful enough to know that further argument will only result in more hostility from people who are really not even involved in the contest.

[InfiniteNow]

People's resistance and hostility should not prevent us from arguing what is right.

 

I very clearly understand your underlying motivation, Moontanman, and I also respect it. You want people to all just "get along." I want this, also, but I've prioritized some things over that desire for peace.

 

I'm just saying that I'm not about to stop arguing against idiocy because it's proven of limited success in the past and causes hostility and resistance in the present. No, sir. I refuse to muzzle myself because there are others too weak to defend their own illogical and childish positions. I will speak my thoughts, share my ideas, and attack the nonsense of others... and if the attitide and approach of those others is so powerful as to be worthy of some respect and/or protection then let them strike me down with their logic, abilitity, and intelligence, not some ridiculous call to censorship.

 

Again, I appreciate the desire for peace. It is one that permeates my entire being. However, I will continue to argue my stance as I would on ANY other topic in the ENTIRE universe, without concern for the hurt feelings of the pitifully brainwashed who defend the side I oppose.

 

It's not about a truce, it's about eradicating a disease.

 

 

 

EDIT: I also find your assertion that religion is a source of morality a bit offensive, and one that is rather easily squashed and disproven. However, as I said, I recognize the inherently good motivations in your post, so I've chosen not to demolish that particlar assertion at this time, choosing instead simply restate my own. Be well, friend. :)

[Moontanman]

People's resistance and hostility should not prevent us from arguing what is right.

 

I very clearly understand your underlying motivation, Moontanman, and I also respect it. You want people to all just "get along." I want this, also, but I've prioritized some things over that desire for peace.

 

I'm just saying that I'm not about to stop arguing against idiocy because it's proven of limited success in the past and causes hostility and resistance in the present. No, sir. I refuse to muzzle myself because there are others too weak to defend their own illogical and childish positions. I will speak my thoughts, share my ideas, and attack the nonsense of others... and if the attitide and approach of those others is so powerful as to be worthy of some respect and/or protection then let them strike me down with their logic, abilitity, and intelligence, not some ridiculous call to censorship.

 

Again, I appreciate the desire for peace. It is one that permeates my entire being. However, I will continue to argue my stance as I would on ANY other topic in the ENTIRE universe, without concern for the hurt feelings of the pitifully brainwashed who defend the side I oppose.

 

It's not about a truce, it's about eradicating a disease.

 

 

 

EDIT: I also find your assertion that religion is a source of morality a bit offensive, and one that is rather easily squashed and disproven. However, as I said, I recognize the inherently good motivations in your post, so I've chosen not to demolish that particlar assertion at this time, choosing instead simply restate my own. Be well, friend. :)

 

Religion has done me no favors, I got tired of having to change my world view every time my family changed churches a long time ago. so they disowned me, they all pretend to tolerate each other but if the government didn't keep them in line it wouldn't take much time before they started to kill each other. the gross ideas of morality, don't kill, steal, cheat, etc is either based in religion or has been taken over by religion for so long no one can remember any other sources for these ideas. another thing that makes me think that a persons world view of morality is based in religion is the people who can indeed kill or comment what we might see as crimes based on their religions view of morality. IE killing a female family member over honor and feeling it was the moral thing to do. Just because most peoples morality is based in religion doesn't mean it's my idea of morality or yours. the sad fact is most people will do what ever their religion says is moral. that is probably the most scary thing about religion, it's effect on morality. And no I don't just want to get along i just don't want to waste time and energy trying to win a no win argument. the more we argue against religion the stronger it's support becomes and the more people are sucked into the whole who is right and wrong deal. I think it's important to realize that we can't win on intelligence alone, we have to simply separate the two. Trying to prove them wrong is a fools errand, they cannot be proved wrong. they want you to try so they can make you look like the bad guy. It's easy for them to make science look foolish, not because science is foolish but because they have no honor, no truth to prove, no real stance other than science is wrong. they don't have to be right they don't have to have any proof they just have to manipulate emotions. Manipulating emotions is what religions have been doing for millenia, they have it down to a perfect "science" they don't appeal to anything but the emotional we're right they're wrong because we have the secrete knowledge no one else has and you don't have to smart or go to school or even pay attention to be in the "know" all you have to do is leave your brain at the door and believe!

[jedaisoul]

Moontanman, I broadly agree with your sentiments, but I cannot agree with:

When science claims to be able to prove religion false what they are really saying is they can prove one persons interpretations of what the religion says cannot be supported by available data. Science cannot prove religion to be bunk and it makes science look bad to claim this is so.

Since when has science made any claim to "prove religion to be bunk"? Individual scientists may express an opionion on this, but they do so as individuals. Science has no agenda about religion per se.

 

On the other hand, it is an over-simplification to suggest that "religion" speaks with one voice on this either. There are plenty of "religious" people who recognise the stupidity of trying to argue scientific facts from a religious perspective. What you have is a hardcore of religious people who believe in the literal truth of the bible. The trouble is, they are not likely to go away. So scientists do have to "prove one persons interpretations of what the religion says cannot be supported by available data". And that is all they are doing.

 

Talk of a "so called battle between science and religion" is misleading.

[Moontanman]

I can see from these responses I didn't phrase my post with accuracy. The real problem isn't a battle between science and religion. The real problem is with Self serving, Self righteous, sanctimonious, religious, bull **** artists that are using science as a way to whip up support for their own grab for power and influence in todays society. I was naive and looking at my own personal problems with the BS being thrown around by these people. I do think that people who support a scientific view of life are wasting their time by engaging these people and allowing them to use this divide to gain even more influence. I personally started having problems swallowing the discrepancies and contradictions of religion when I was quite young. The real point at which these things become totally intolerable was when the preacher in the church I was dragged to every Sunday almost killed his daughter because she admitted to having a crush (she was 13 he was 13) on a young boy of a different race who went to our church. This was so totally contradictory to what had been taught from the pulpit I was unable to ever really believe again. From that point on I was never able to smooth over the bullshit again. I did see that any argument that couldn't be explained was either ignored or ridiculed as stupid or ignorant no matter how much real evidence backed it up. I see more and more of that all the time. Arguing with these people serves no one but them. They have no honor, no real intelligence, no problem with lying, cheating, ridiculing or using any other tactic to win the hearts and minds of people every where. It even keeps those who might be able to see the big lie in line by making any real information appear to be stupid and ridiculous by preventing any one from actually being able to think for themselves. Dismissing the truth out of hand and substituting misinformation or just straight out lies makes them almost invulnerable. Leading by example is more likely to have a positive effect than trying to show how wrong they are. It's just that on personal level this argument has caused me a lot of personal pain to maintain my own intelligence, I'm frustrated by my own inability to make anything but a negative impact on the problem. How do you lead people to the truth with out alienating them in the process? Especially when the truth seems to have little or no meaning to the religious right?