Where does philosophy come from?

[cotner]

 

From cotner

Philosophy is the continuous unending search for the programming that exists or might exist or should exist in everything in the light of speculative reasoning.

 

What do you guys here say about my definition, which also explains where philosophy comes from.

 

Hi cotner,

 

a) You say that philosoply is "continuous". Surely there have been major discontinuities in it (at least, in the extant philosophical writings). How can you know what philosophical thought there was in the past if it was never recorded, or has not survived?

 

 

I am talking about the practice of philosophy not the history of philosophy, or more properly the inquiry which today we call philosophy; this inquiry has always been in the mind of man since when he attained intelligence, even though the history of such an inquiry has not been recorded as to be available today in every period of man's quest for answers to this inquiry which again we today call philosophy.

 

 

 

:applause: Similarly, you suggest that philosoply is "unending". How can you know that it will never end?

 

 

I mean by unending in the sense that it is always with man. as long as man is around and remains intelligent.

 

 

c) In what sense are you using the word "programming"?

 

 

By programming I mean an order whereby once you know the order you can expect what comes next and when, like the programme in a staged event as in a burial service, or the order of day following night and night following day, and winter coming after autumn, etc.

 

 

d) Programming implies a programmer. Isn't that theology rather than philosophy?

 

 

As a matter of my own knowledge which of course is not free of misconceptions, theology is the application of philosophy to determine the order or the programming in man's behavior called religion.

 

Programming implies a programmer, of course, certainly. In philosophy we want to search for the programming in everything from a scripted public event like a wedding to the as I said the phenomenon of day and night following and succeeding each other.

 

 

e) It depends on your answer to c) above, but from what you have said so far it would appear that you are using the term "philosophy" to encompass all intellectual endeavours, including the whole of science and technology. If so, perhaps you need to be a bit more specific in your definition of philosophy?

 

 

Please pay attention to the last phrase of my definition, here in bold with my reproduction of my definition again:

 

Philosophy is the continuous unending search for the programming that exists or might exist or should exist in everything

in the light of speculative reasoning.

 

 

f) In what way does what you have said explain where philosophy comes from?

 

 

Philosophy comes from the mind of man as from a source agent; in my definition it is impliedly stated, since anyone reading the text can see that man is understood to be the doer of philosophy.

 

Anyway, are we acquainted with any other entity in this vast known universe that does philosophy, aside from man? If you know any, then invite it to also join us here.

 

 

I invite you, jedaisoul and everyone here, to formulate a definition of philosophy, so that we can all work out a definition that is acceptable to all people who do have a curiosity to know philosophy.

 

 

Afterward we can proceed to discuss "Where does philosophy come from," although we already know that it comes from the mind of man; but we want to discern more comprehensively and detailedly the question and the answer where does philosophy come from.

 

 

 

cotner

[jedaisoul]

a) You say that philosoply is "continuous". Surely there have been major discontinuities in it (at least, in the extant philosophical writings). How can you know what philosophical thought there was in the past if it was never recorded, or has not survived?

I am talking about the practice of philosophy not the history of philosophy, or more properly the inquiry which today we call philosophy; this inquiry has always been in the mind of man since when he attained intelligence, even though the history of such an inquiry has not been recorded as to be available today in every period of man's quest for answers to this inquiry which again we today call philosophy.

You appear to be expresing an opinon as if it were fact. This may be true, but how do you know this to be so?

 

:) Similarly, you suggest that philosoply is "unending". How can you know that it will never end?

I mean by unending in the sense that it is always with man. as long as man is around and remains intelligent.

As above. This is opinion expressed as fact. A simple, "I cannot justify this claim but I believe it to be true" would have sufficed. More importantly, what purpose do you have in claiming that philosophy is continuous and unending? What does continuity and permanence add to the definition of philosophy? Surely philosophy is philosophy irrespective of whether it is continuous or unending? Is this just irrelevant "word salad"?

 

c) In what sense are you using the word "programming"?

By programming I mean an order whereby once you know the order you can expect what comes next and when, like the programme in a staged event as in a burial service, or the order of day following night and night following day, and winter coming after autumn, etc.

In what way is this a meaningful definition of philosophy? Why is "programming" of this kind so important that you base your definition of philosophy on it?

 

d) Programming implies a programmer. Isn't that theology rather than philosophy?

As a matter of my own knowledge which of course is not free of misconceptions, theology is the application of philosophy to determine the order or the programming in man's behavior called religion. Programming implies a programmer, of course, certainly. In philosophy we want to search for the programming in everything from a scripted public event like a wedding to the as I said the phenomenon of day and night following and succeeding each other.

I can't see the connecetion between man made events, which are undoubtedly programmed in the manner you describe, and the "phenomenon of day and night following and succeeding each other". On what basis do you assume there is a connection? Surely that is an opinion which is scientifically unjustified and unjustifiable? It is theology dressed up as philosophy.

 

e) It depends on your answer to c) above, but from what you have said so far it would appear that you are using the term "philosophy" to encompass all intellectual endeavours, including the whole of science and technology. If so, perhaps you need to be a bit more specific in your definition of philosophy?

Please pay attention to the last phrase of my definition, here in bold with my reproduction of my definition again:

Philosophy is the continuous unending search for the programming that exists or might exist or should exist in everything

in the light of speculative reasoning.

Exactly. The term "speculative reasoning" encompasses the whole of thought, including theology, science and technology. Your definition is far too wide.

 

f) In what way does what you have said explain where philosophy comes from?

Philosophy comes from the mind of man as from a source agent; in my definition it is impliedly stated, since anyone reading the text can see that man is understood to be the doer of philosophy.

Ok we agree that "man is the doer of philosophy", as far as we are aware.

 

Anyway, are we acquainted with any other entity in this vast known universe that does philosophy, aside from man? If you know any, then invite it to also join us here.

What is the relevance of that? Do dolphins do philosophy? I don't know, but I believe that they have a language at least as complex as ours. So I agree that it is valid to constrain our discussion to the philosophy of man, but only because that is the only philosophy that we comprehend.

 

I invite you, jedaisoul and everyone here, to formulate a definition of philosophy, so that we can all work out a definition that is acceptable to all people who do have a curiosity to know philosophy.Afterward we can proceed to discuss "Where does philosophy come from" although we already know that it comes from the mind of man; but we want to discern more comprehensively and detailedly the question and the answer where does philosophy come from.

The invitation is welcome, though I thought that coberst had already issued such an invitation by initiating the thread. I merely questioned the validity of your definition.

[coberst]

I once asked a philosophy professor “What is philosophy about?” He said philosophy is “radically critical self-consciousness”. This was 35 years ago. Only in the last five years have I begun to understand that statement

 

I took a number of courses in philosophy three decades ago but it was not until I began to study and understand Critical Thinking that I began to understand what “radically critical self-consciousness” meant.

 

I consider CT to be ‘philosophy light’. CT differs from other subject matter such as mathematics and geography in that it requires, for success, that the student develop a significant change in attitude.

 

Anyone who has been in military service recognizes the significant attitude adjustment introduced into all recruits in the eight weeks of boot camp. During the first eight weeks of military service each recruit is introduced to the proper military attitude. During the eight weeks of basic training there is certain knowledge and skills that the recruit learns but primarily s/he undergoes a significant attitude adjustment.

 

I would identify the CT attitude adjustment to be a movement from naïve common sense realism to critical self-consciousness. It is necessary to free many words and concepts from the limited meaning attached by normal usage—such a separation requires that the learner hold in abeyance the normal sort of concept associations.

 

The individual who has made the attitude adjustment recognizes that reality is multilayered and that one can only penetrate those layers through a critical attitude toward both the self and the world. To be critical does not mean to be negative, as is a common misunderstanding.

 

If we were to follow the cat and the turtle as they make their way through the forest we would observe two fundamentally different ways that a creature might make its way through life.

 

The turtle withdraws into its shell when it bumps into something new, and remains such until that something new disappears or remains long enough to become familiar to the turtle. The cat is conscious of almost everything within the range of its senses, and studies all it perceives until its curiosity is satisfied.

 

Formal education teaches by telling so that the graduate is prepared with a sufficient database to get a job. Such an education efficiently prepares one to make a living, but this efficiency is at the cost of curiosity and imagination. Such an education does not prepare an individual to become critically self-conscious.

 

If we wish to emulate the cat rather than the turtle we must revitalize our curiosity and imagination after formal education. That revitalized curiosity and imagination, together with self directed study prepares each of us for a fulfilling life that includes the ecstasy of understanding.

 

I think that radically critical self-consciousness combines the attitude adjustment of CT and combines it with the curiosity of the cat and then takes that combination to a radical level.

 

A good place to begin CT is: 20th WCP: Bertrand Russell on Critical Thinking

[coberst]

Actually my OP says that philosophy comes from basic assumptions that seem inherent to human kind.

[cotner]

I thought that I had come to a definition of philosophy which I still think is the best and most versatile and most prolific description of philosophy.

 

Philosophy is the continuous unending search for the programming that exists or might exist or should exist in everything in the light of speculative reasoning.

 

If you read anywhere under any name something like my definition of philosophy, above, then it is from me, here called cotner, or from people who have heard me or read me.

 

 

What do you guys here say about my definition, which also explains where philosophy comes from.

 

 

In this respect of my definition, animals like our home pets dogs and cats also do philosophy when they seek to determine the programming that exists or might exist or should exist in everything, starting with their masters, humans, at home who feed them and love them and they in return manifest closeness to their masters.

 

That kind of philosophy is what I call close-sighted philosophy; with humans we go for much much more far-sighted philosophy, asking or probing or determining the question even of what is the beginning of being, and my answer is being has always been there, being IS, and we all are parts and parcels of being.

 

So there is no sense in asking about the beginning of being. The question should be directed to any particular form of being, like you and me, and the answer is we have our beginnings from our parents.

 

You will ask me then, and our parents? from their parents of course. Are we not diving then into infinite regression? No, not necessarily, because the beginning of all beginnings is being; and the question then is how being transformed itself into all forms of being.

 

And the most to our human knowledge complex and in a way perfect -- in our human estimation, is the form of being we are, humans.

 

 

cotner

 

.

Please volunteer your definition of philosophy, in fifty words or less.

 

I will now just bring up one definition of philosophy that is fifty words or less, and compare it to mine.

 

Here is again my definition of philosophy in less than fifty words

 

Philosophy is the continuous unending search for the programming that exists or might exist or should exist in everything in the light of speculative reasoning.

 

Here is one definition that is less than fifty words:

 

1. the search for truth and knowledge concerning the universe, human existence, perception and behaviour, pursued by means of reflection, reasoning and argument.

Chambers Dictionary

Chambers Reference Online

 

I think it is a more concise definition than mine, but as good.

 

Let me produce another definition from a published source.

 

Philosophy -- study of the ultimate reality, causes, and principles underlying being and thinking. It has many aspects and different manifestations according to the problems involved and the method of approach and emphasis used by the individual philosopher.

The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition

Highbeam Encyclopedia - Search Results for philosophy

 

More words and more difficult for man in the street.

 

 

Shall we have some definitions from the posters here, in fifty words or less?

 

As regards the question, where does philosophy come from, it comes from the mind of man; that answers the question where as regards the generic source, man, and as regards the more specific location of the generic source, mind of man.

 

So, when man in the street asks what is philosophy, this is the answer that is short and easy:

 

 

Philosophy is the continuous unending search for the programming that exists or might exist or should exist in everything in the light of speculative reasoning.

 

What is philosophy should be his first question, or one should tell him to ask first what is philosophy.

 

When he then asks where does philosophy come from, here is the very concise and absolutely correct answer:

 

From the mind of man.

 

 

Man in the street who is more curious than busy with money and food and sex and entertainment, might then ask why or how the mind of man does philosophy.

 

----------------

 

Please then first draft your definitions of philosophy in fifty words or less, then we will talk about where philosophy comes from, even though we know already that it comes from the mind of man, but just to be comprehensive and extensive.

 

 

 

cotner

[Boerseun]

Science is the process of reverse-engineering Nature to get to the base algorithms making the program run...

 

Philosophy is an attempt at justifying it.

[Boerseun]

...and, of course, Religion is actually Copyright Control and Enforcement. :)

[jedaisoul]

Please then first draft your definitions of philosophy in fifty words or less, then we will talk about where philosophy comes from...

 

I agree that the definition should be brief. I would suggest that Wikipedia's definition is a good starting point:

"Philosophy is the discipline concerned with questions of how one should live (ethics); what sorts of things exist and what are their essential natures (metaphysics); what counts as genuine knowledge (epistemology); and what are the correct principles of reasoning (logic)".

 

Philosophy comes from, or is, the act of seeking answers to these questions.

[cotner]

 

by cotner

Please then first draft your definitions of philosophy in fifty words or less, then we will talk about where philosophy comes from...

 

I agree that the definition should be brief. I would suggest that Wikipedia's definition is a good starting point:

"Philosophy is the discipline concerned with questions of how one should live (ethics); what sorts of things exist and what are their essential natures (metaphysics); what counts as genuine knowledge (epistemology); and what are the correct principles of reasoning (logic)".

 

Philosophy comes from, or is, the act of seeking answers to these questions.

 

I really like to read your own personally formulated definition of philosophy, and also from coberst, likewise from anyone who will take the time and labor to craft a definition of philosophy in fifty words or less.

 

Please do me this favor.

 

 

 

cotner

[Boerseun]

...from anyone who will take the time and labor to craft a definition of philosophy in fifty words or less.

 

Please do me this favor.

Done. Read my prior two posts - I was actually being serious...

[coberst]

Done. Read my prior two posts - I was actually being serious...

 

 

Like Boerseun I have already given mine.

[jedaisoul]

I really like to read your own personally formulated definition of philosophy...

 

I don't think it helpful for us to have individual definitions of philosophy, but the aspect of philosophy that I'm most interested in is the interaction with science in defining what actually exists, as opposed to man-made models of the universe.

[cotner]

by cotner

...from anyone who will take the time and labor to craft a definition of philosophy in fifty words or less.

 

Please do me this favor.

 

Done. Read my prior two posts - I was actually being serious...

 

Re: Where does philosophy come from? - 12-09-2007, 03:43 PM

 

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Science is the process of reverse-engineering Nature to get to the base algorithms making the program run...

 

Philosophy is an attempt at justifying it.

 

 

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Rep Power: 1230 Re: Where does philosophy come from? - 12-09-2007, 03:45 PM

 

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...and, of course, Religion is actually Copyright Control and Enforcement.

 

 

Thanks, I missed them; but do you think that you could rewrite them as to make them less quizzical?

 

Suppose you write something like in the following manner:

 

 

Philosophy is the continuous unending search for the programming that exists or might exist or should exist in everything in the light of speculative reasoning.

 

 

 

We would like, you and me and everyone here who talk philosophy, to give the impression to man in the street that our definitions deserve inclusion in a recognized reference work.

 

 

Since philosophy is being defined, it is conventional to start with the word philosophy instead of the word science or religion; then afterward you can bring in science and religion for comparison.

 

I have the desire to bring philsophy to man in the street who want quick, brief, easy answers.

 

Of course, some will say that philosophy is not for man in the street; which statement betrays the I would say lamentable mentlity of these philosophy talkers -- why philosophy is then taken by most people who are interested but turned off by such an attitude of philosophy talkers, and also give them the impression that philosophy talkers waste time over things which upon their own examination, men in the street that is, are just known already to everyone who has to make a living and to make something of life as to die with the thought that they had lived life.

 

 

 

cotner

[cotner]

 

by cotner

I really like to read your own personally formulated definition of philosophy...

 

I don't think it helpful for us to have individual definitions of philosophy, but the aspect of philosophy that I'm most interested in is the interaction with science in defining what actually exists, as opposed to man-made models of the universe.

 

Definitions are of the utmost crucial importance in human discourse which human is the only one doing discourse with fellow humans.

 

Unless we get to a common definition of a word and its packaged idea, we would be talking even without knowing it at cross purposes.

 

However, this does not mean at all that definitions should be frozen as to be beyond all possibilities and necessities of modification and even total jettison.

 

Establish common definitions and change them as we get to know more and better about what really exists outside our words and ideas.

 

You say:

but the aspect of philosophy that I'm most interested in is the interaction with science in defining what actually exists, as opposed to man-made models of the universe.

 

See? you feel the need to 'define', i.e., to put boundaries to "what actually exists," as distinct from and opposed to "man-made models of the universe."

 

You mean you want to come to an idea of existence or existing things which are not purely man-made models of the universe.

 

I guess you and I know that everything is a man-made model of existence and existing things.

 

 

But there are models and models, some are more equivalent too existence or existing things they are models of than others.

 

 

cotner

[jedaisoul]

Definitions are of the utmost crucial importance in human discourse which human is the only one doing discourse with fellow humans. Unless we get to a common definition of a word and its packaged idea, we would be talking even without knowing it at cross purposes.

That's why it is important that we use generally agreed definitions for words. If we define the words we use dynamically (as you propose), then communication becomes fragmented. Others reading what we have said have first to determine how we are defining the terms, before they can understand what we are saying. That's very inefficient and unnecessary. I would suggest that it is better to stick to generally accepted definitions, unless there is a meaning we wish to convey that there is not an extant word or phrase associated with. Then we have to create a new term (or borow an old one) and explain the meaning we associate with it.

 

I guess you and I know that everything is a man-made model of existence and existing things.

That depends upon whether you are speaking metaphysically or scientifically:

 

a) Metaphysically, the only thing I know exists is me, and it is impossible to know more than that. Everything else is supposition. I.e. Man-made models.

 

:) Scientifically, we hold as an axiom that the universe exists physically, independent of our awareness of it. Therefore it is a legitimate to state in that context that we [/i]know[/i] a great deal about the universe. But it is still important to distinguish between the universe, and man-made models of it.

 

I was speaking in a scientific context, as I hoped was apparent, but I should have been explicit.

[cotner]

That's why it is important that we use generally agreed definitions for words. [etc.]

 

My man, please now draft a definition of philosophy which you can see to be informative to man in the street, in fifty words or less.

 

Imagine that you have only fifty words to use to draft such a definition and it has to be intelligible to man in the street.

 

 

I have made my definition thus:

 

Philosophy is the continuous unending search for the programming that exists or might exist or should exist in everything in the light of speculative reasoning.

 

And here is Boer’s definition or le mot juste on philosophy:

 

Science is the process of reverse-engineering Nature to get to the base algorithms making the program run...

Philosophy is an attempt at justifying it.

...and, of course, Religion is actually Copyright Control and Enforcement.

 

Perhaps coberst would be kind to refer us to where he has given his definition of philosophy?

 

 

Then we can us four come to an agreed definition from our respective ideas of philosophy, so that we can proceed to discuss where does philosophy come from.

 

 

cotner

[jedaisoul]

My man, please now draft a definition of philosophy which you can see to be informative to man in the street, in fifty words or less.

Sorry, I've explained why I think it is a bad idea, and I'm not playing that game. If you want me to agree a new definition of philosophy, you first have to show me a shortcoming in the Wiki definition. Otherwise it is a waste of time.

 

What problem do you have in working from the Wiki definition?