Erasmus00 Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 Wrong! Vacuum fluctuation cause is a virtural sea of particles that behave according to Quantum field theories predictions. Try again. NOTHING happens without a cause. This is a fact and a truism. You lack some understanding of quantum field theories. These are NOT deterministic A causes B theories, but are instead probablistic. There is no difference between a pocket of space in which particles have spontaneously appeared and a pocket of space where they haven't. -Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erasmus00 Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 how many totally random systems are currently known? if quantum is mathmatically pure, how can it predict a random state which is at odds with mathematical principles? What do you mean by mathematically pure? Quantum mechanics is perhaps the most "pure" application of linear vector/function spaces. Mathematics isn't always "certain" but can, in fact, handle probabilities. -Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteNow Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 Please feel free to explain the uncertainty principle and how its basis is known and proved and shows randomness.If you were beside me, and we were walking together as friends, I would gladly share my own rudimentary understanding with you and make every attempt to honestly and accurately answer your questions about uncertainty, however, in these forums, the onus is on you to educate yourself about those ideas which interest you. Best, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rsade Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 Correct me if I'm wrong, but vacuum fluctuation is simply a modal response of the particles, and is completely predicted by quantum theories as being a random state of system.Quantum is only a description of anything that is subatomic or very very small usually in the plank scale range. Quantum particles behave very strangely according to we macro sized observers, however I feel that when and if we do discover a TOE (theory of everything) or a GUT (grand unified field theory) that the quantum world will be intimately linked to gravity and all the other forces~~~~ AS WELL AS MOST ,METAPHYICAL EVENTS !!!!~~~~~ Ahhh‘…. well, to answer your question, which is more complicated than it first seems, a virtual quantum particle that pops into existence (think ZPE) has a twin that lies in another state. I feel that this is actually an orderly event rather than a purely random event and can be calculated to a very high degree of probability. And this is aimed at infininiteNow , whom I respect very much. I feel that quantum theory should be discussed in the theology topic room ! Google quantum brain or quantum conscious! This is going to the the next big thing in religion brothers and sisters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erasmus00 Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 (regarding vacuum fluctuations)I feel that this is actually an orderly event rather than a purely random event and can be calculated to a very high degree of probability. All you ever calculate is the probability of a fluctuation happening. You cannot calculate when or where such will happen. There is no "cause" in the traditional sense. -Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rsade Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 You lack some understanding of quantum field theories. These are NOT deterministic A causes B theories, but are instead probablistic. There is no difference between a pocket of space in which particles have spontaneously appeared and a pocket of space where they haven't. Tis' you that have erred in interpreting my post or perhaps its my horrible grammar and the ability to be communicative of anything of a higher nature easily! ...ahhh ummm…(stroking goatee) I don't think I said that quantum events were deterministic! I said the universe according to me, Rsade is deterministic! A deterministic universe can quite well fit in infinite,... well almost infinite Quantum events, it has to! It must! There is no macro without quanta...of course. It is required by GOD, and designed by God to be this way. Hey this is the theology thread. Praise the lord god and thank you Jesus , the messenger of god , who died for us, so we could be saved by your grace! Are we on the same page now brother eraser? And I beg to differ with the space comment. There is a huge difference in the space time where (or when or ?) a quantum particle is in a state of superposition! (than say where the collapseof the wave Fun. has evented') Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rsade Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 Originally Posted by questorPlease feel free to explain the uncertainty principle and how its basis is known and proved and shows randomness. In the Quantum world (use an electron for an example here) measure one aspect at a time (this is a HIGHLY edited explanation) . Say either its mass (or lack of mass) or its momentum, not both. Until we measure or observe it is neither or and said to be in a state of superposition. In the thought experiment of the cat in the box the cat is neither dead or alive! It is in superposition, this is called the Copenhagen interpretation sorta.' mebbie I should just cut and paste...? Oh well I tried....Read up on the double slit exp. its really strangely good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ughaibu Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 Erasmus00: Presumably the probabilities are subject to some constraints of location by time or space. If not, wouldn't the probability either be 1 or the event impossible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rsade Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 All you ever calculate is the probability of a fluctuation happening. You cannot calculate when or where such will happen. There is no "cause" in the traditional sense. -Will I disagree. To ramble on..and on....and on..sombody stop me... The cause of the virtual particle coming to our attention or recognized state was the force of probabilities forced a collapse of the wave function. There was a prior sea of virtual Quantum particles that behaved according to QFT, and caused this particle to come to our attention. Thus it had a cause to exist. The universe had a cause to begin to exist and that cause was the will of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rsade Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 Erasmus00: Presumably the probabilities are subject to some constraints of location by time or space. If not, wouldn't the probability either be 1 or the event impossible? Yes, however, If I understand your statment correctly, we need a more detailed quntam event to get down to the details, or to give you a precise answer. This has been a convo (and an interesting one) in broad general sweeping terms. I would like to thank everybody for their input. I enjoy looking at old problems in a new light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwes99_03 Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 I believe that you all should be in this thread, instead of in the creationism logical thread. http://hypography.com/forums/philosophy-humanities/6101-determinism.html QM and Heisenberg were mentioned there as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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