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Belief In Reincarnation Among Native North Americans


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#35 montgomery

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 12:31 PM

It's not my theory. I used to work with someone who's into conspiracy theories so I know that one. You asked why there's a pantagon conspiracy theory.

You could be mixing up conspiracy theories with the truth. Fwiw, my belief in the official story is Thoth's and your conspiracy theory. I'm going with the airplane into the Pentagon and you two are going with the missile (s).

 

Back to the original question. Victor got it right and you should have just given it to him.



#36 A-wal

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 12:59 PM

You can believe whatever you want I am just telling you how it works(https://wps.ablongma...7915/index.html and https://www.frontier...2018.02091/full).

You haven't been able to give anything remotely approaching an explanation. Stop naming Roman emperors and claiming it explains gravitational dynamics!

Is it brain matter, electrical charges or somehow organisation itself that you believe to be conscious?

Whichever one you think it happens to be really doesn't matter. You need to explain how in the hell your chosen physical mechanistic process is able to explain thoughts, emotions and the subjective experience of the reality of being a conscious entity. That's that enormous chasm I mentioned earlier. You haven't been able to even begin to cross that chasm, you just keep falling off the edge.

Brain matter/electrical charges/organisation of the same -----> Conscious experience. You're not providing any kind of explanation of how to get from one to the other. Do you seriously not see that?



#37 A-wal

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 01:07 PM

You could be mixing up conspiracy theories with the truth. Fwiw, my belief in the official story is Thoth's and your conspiracy theory. I'm going with the airplane into the Pentagon and you two are going with the missile (s).

I told you I was just giving you the theory, not telling you what belief I subscribe to. What the fcuk is wrong with you?

 

Back to the original question. Victor got it right and you should have just given it to him.

Victor has been completely unable to provide any kind of explanation at all so there's really no possibility even in principle that he could be right, he would have to actually offer up some kind of link between physical processes and the subjective experience of consciousness for him to possibly right or wrong and he hasn't been able to do that.

 

I'm still trying to work out if he thinks it's the electrical charges themselves or (and this has to be the most batshit explanation I've ever come across) the organisation of those charges (wtf!) that's conscious.



#38 Flummoxed

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 02:26 PM

False Religious belief.... ewww , whatever construct of electric flows in a organic computer. I thought you said you didn't believe in religion. Mutex's relation was wrong in the fact that everytime you sleep parts of your brain shut off the analogy would be closer to computer parts breaking and unable to process information anymore when you die without a replacement part as neurons do not divide after they stop being stem cells when you are very young still inside your mom. You rot in the ground and turn into nothingness, none of this false spiritual bullshit just like the computer gets taken to the junk yard.

 

I believe in cause and effect > we are "automatons", doing what we do because of historical inputs, from a (???) reference frame. We have primary inputs and a whole host of lesser inputs, causing(cause) us do what we do what we do (effect) This is not a religious belief, your response to me would not have happened if I had not responded to your input. 

 

Mutex's reference frame is intriguing due to distance being a bit different, to warped space. 



#39 Flummoxed

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 02:31 PM

You haven't been able to give anything remotely approaching an explanation. Stop naming Roman emperors and claiming it explains gravitational dynamics!

Is it brain matter, electrical charges or somehow organisation itself that you believe to be conscious?

Whichever one you think it happens to be really doesn't matter. You need to explain how in the hell your chosen physical mechanistic process is able to explain thoughts, emotions and the subjective experience of the reality of being a conscious entity. That's that enormous chasm I mentioned earlier. You haven't been able to even begin to cross that chasm, you just keep falling off the edge.

Brain matter/electrical charges/organisation of the same -----> Conscious experience. You're not providing any kind of explanation of how to get from one to the other. Do you seriously not see that?

 

Cause and effect? 

 

Universal consciousness via Orch-or theory and an organic quantum computer in your head, might explain some peoples conscious experience :) 



#40 Flummoxed

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 02:36 PM

You could be mixing up conspiracy theories with the truth. Fwiw, my belief in the official story is Thoth's and your conspiracy theory. I'm going with the airplane into the Pentagon and you two are going with the missile (s).

 

Back to the original question. Victor got it right and you should have just given it to him.

 

What happened to the engines? some fusilage survived, https://en.wikipedia...lines_Flight_77



#41 A-wal

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 02:48 PM

I believe in cause and effect > we are "automatons", doing what we do because of historical inputs, from a (???) reference frame. We have primary inputs and a whole host of lesser inputs, causing(cause) us do what we do what we do (effect) This is not a religious belief, your response to me would not have happened if I had not responded to your input. 

 

Mutex's reference frame is intriguing due to distance being a bit different, to warped space. 

Yes, that and evolution explain life perfectly, except what the hell is this conscious observer thing all about? Where the hell did it come from and how could it possibly be explained through physical mechanisms? Why aren't we just going through the motions, how come we actually get to experience anything? Maybe you're not conscious at all, maybe it's just me that is, how could I tell the difference. That would certainly help to explain why I'm having such trouble trying to get something so ridiculously simple across. That would technically make me god, I like that a lot. Do my bidding minions!

 

Cause and effect? 

 

Universal consciousness via Orch-or theory and an organic quantum computer in your head, might explain some peoples conscious experience :)

I'm not sure I'm actually familiar with Orch-or theory, I'll look it up.

 

What happened to the engines? some fusilage survived, https://en.wikipedia...lines_Flight_77

This conversation is now spread across about five or six different topics. :)


Edited by A-wal, 12 July 2020 - 02:49 PM.


#42 A-wal

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 02:54 PM

Orchestrated objective reduction (Orch OR) is a biological philosophy of mind that postulates that consciousness originates at the quantum level inside neurons, rather than the conventional view that it is a product of connections between neurons. The mechanism is held to be a quantum process called objective reduction that is orchestrated by cellular structures called microtubules. It is proposed that the theory may answer the hard problem of consciousness and provide a mechanism for free will. The hypothesis was first put forward in the early 1990s by theoretical physicist Roger Penrose and anaesthesiologist and psychologist Stuart Hameroff. The hypothesis combines approaches from molecular biology, neuroscience, pharmacology, philosophy, quantum information theory, and quantum gravity.

 

Oh quantum consciousness, yea I know about that one. I think that's the one that uses the uncertainty principle for freewill, but I might be thinking of something else.

 

This one has the same problem as all the others, it's still just a mechanical description of physical processes. How to you get from that to the appearence of a counscious observer with subjective experiences who thinks and feels?


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#43 montgomery

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 05:06 PM

What happened to the engines? some fusilage survived, https://en.wikipedia...lines_Flight_77

I posted a link that showed the engines but Thoth convinced me that the photos were photoshopped. The plot thickens!!

 

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.......... !!

 

Oh, and 

a-wol says the same as Thoth but he pretends he doesn't. Never put too much faith in a pinhead.


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#44 A-wal

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 05:10 PM

Oh, and 

a-wol says the same as Thoth but he pretends he doesn't. Never put too much faith in a pinhead.

You asked why he believes in the pantagon thing so I told you. I never said it's what I personally believe. You can't possibly be this thick, you're just being a troll. You bored?



#45 Thoth101

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 09:37 PM

I've pondered it Thoth and I still am with Victor on the whole question. In a nutshell, no supernatural gobbledegoop for me. But thank you for not blaming me for taking that position.

 

I only wish I could feel the same way about you! Maybe I can with some work on it and so that's the reason why I ask you to explain why you don't believe the official story on the Pentagon. Do you go with the two missile story or just one missile. And also fwiw, do you think they put airplane engines on the missile (s) to mislead the public? Or are those engines lazer generated or photoshopped. See A-wal's theory before you choose one.

Yes for sure.That is fair. You have the right to believe what you want. We all have our belief systems and the fact is none of us know the truth. We can only have our theories and what we believe in. We sure will find out when we die though. I am 100 percent convinced though that the Christian religion and Muslim religions are totally wrong in their life after death scenarios. But as wacky as they are they are to free to believe what they want. Then again in most Muslim countries you can't choose another religion or even NOT have a religion.

 

At first when I joined the military in 2001 I did believe the official story word for word. That is the whole reason I joined because of 911. I wanted to take out those darn terrorist bastards. :lol:  But being witness to some things while in the military which I can't say. My mind started to change a bit on the whole matter. Then I started doing research on it. Suffice to say I did my 6 years but I did not re-enlist. Over my next two days off of work if I can find some time I will open a 911 thread and we will try to answer all these questions with logical discussions. It has been awhile since I sat down and looked at all the information on 911. So I need to dive back into it. No doubt in my mind at all though that it didn't happen the way the government and MSM wants us to believe it did. They are very good with their propaganda. In fact it is very hard to fight back against there propaganda. They have trained propagandist in the gov and MSM. Even a few of the MSM news talking heads are ex-CIA agents. They know how to win a debate even if they are lying and cooking the books. They are trained on lying and changing the story on a whim.


Edited by Thoth101, 12 July 2020 - 09:39 PM.


#46 Thoth101

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 09:57 PM

I didn't use the computer analogy, that was Mutex. My point was that the analogy doesn't work because for one thing computers aren't conscious and ignoring that the analogy still doesn't work in the way Mutex would like it to because the information isn't lost when the computer is switched off. Even if computers were somehow conscious that would still leave the same question of how the physical processes of the computer could possibly create subjective experience. They obviously can't and it's moronic to think that they could because physical mechanics and subject experience are entirely different things, like gravitational dynamics and Roman history but even more so.


Radio consciousness seems to make intuitive and rational sense, at least to me. Universal consciousness is interesting when you start thinking of the universe as fractal and look at how it's a perfect match for a brain's neural network at large scales. Fractal geometry for the universe is an amazing thought, it would mean consciousness itself is fractal and each one that appears separate would literally contain all others. Trippy stuff but the point isn't whether any of this is true, it's that the materialist explanation isn't, it's completely batshit. In fact it doesn't even provide any kind of explanation, it just gives a list of Roman emperors and then says that's how gravitational dynamics work.

In explaining consciousness, it may be that we literally need to think outside the box that is, outside the brain. We are not just conscious in a sense, we are consciousness, and consciousness is expressing itself through us. And in that sense, we all share the same consciousness.

 

In this theory which I think even some Quantum Physicist talked about is Consciousness came first. They are calling it panpsychism. 

https://www.scientif...e-the-universe/

http://philsci-archi...ychism_2013.pdf

 

Most mainstream scientists believe that the brain produces consciousness. But from my own research and in what I gathered is, say a human baby is born at some point consciousness that has already been around for eons goes into this human body to experience a 3rd dimensional body with 5-7 senses.

 

When you talk about the radio that reminds me of frequencies. I somewhat remember an example that was given to me that a dimension is like a radio station. We are stuck on this dimension on one radio station. But there are many other radio stations and frequencies that are there but we can't hear them or see them because we are stuck and focused on this one radio station or dimension. That is kind of what a good Psychic or Medium does. They are able tune to the other dimensions that we can't see or hear. Does that make sense? I could be wrong about all this but just making these points to consider.


Edited by Thoth101, 12 July 2020 - 10:58 PM.


#47 Flummoxed

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Posted 13 July 2020 - 06:53 AM

Orchestrated objective reduction (Orch OR) is a biological philosophy of mind that postulates that consciousness originates at the quantum level inside neurons, rather than the conventional view that it is a product of connections between neurons. The mechanism is held to be a quantum process called objective reduction that is orchestrated by cellular structures called microtubules. It is proposed that the theory may answer the hard problem of consciousness and provide a mechanism for free will. The hypothesis was first put forward in the early 1990s by theoretical physicist Roger Penrose and anaesthesiologist and psychologist Stuart Hameroff. The hypothesis combines approaches from molecular biology, neuroscience, pharmacology, philosophy, quantum information theory, and quantum gravity.

 

Oh quantum consciousness, yea I know about that one. I think that's the one that uses the uncertainty principle for freewill, but I might be thinking of something else.

 

This one has the same problem as all the others, it's still just a mechanical description of physical processes. How to you get from that to the appearence of a counscious observer with subjective experiences who thinks and feels?

 

You sound uncertain. :) Everything could be connected to a certain extent!

 

Orch-Or is the only claimed complete theory on consciousness and they have managed to disprove a lot of the arguments against it.:) 



#48 A-wal

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Posted 24 July 2020 - 11:56 AM

You sound uncertain. :) Everything could be connected to a certain extent!

 

Orch-Or is the only claimed complete theory on consciousness and they have managed to disprove a lot of the arguments against it. :)

This orchestrated OR activity ('Orch OR') is taken to result in moments of conscious awareness and/or choice. The DP form of OR is related to the fundamentals of quantum mechanics and space-time geometry, so Orch OR suggests that there is a connection between the brain's biomolecular processes and the basic structure of the universe.

 

It has the same problem as every other theory of consciousness, it gets to a certain point and then just says "and that's where consciousness comes from". No explanation at all of how the described mechanical process could possibly cause the appearance of a conscious observer.

 

You simply can't get from mechanical processes to conscious awareness without saying that it just happens for some reason.

 

"is taken to result in moments of conscious awareness", that's nice. Any particular reason why that should happen?