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#1 hazelm

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 09:13 AM

https://www.bbc.com/...op news stories

 

And, what is it they want instead?   Do they have any good suggestions?  Or are they just squalloring in self-pity? 

 

As a famous psychologist in California (name forgotten) said:  "Never mind what made you like you are.  What I want to hear is what we are going to do about it."

 

Any good ideas out there?  Hazel



#2 Dubbelosix

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:20 PM

Just like Einstein, it's not the actions of bad men, it is the good ones who stand around doing nothing about it.

#3 hazelm

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:51 PM

Just like Einstein, it's not the actions of bad men, it is the good ones who stand around doing nothing about it.

I agree.  Remember "Let George do it"? 

 

Addendum:  Many of those "democracies, including ours, are not democracies.  But, as long as we try to  operate like one,  I suppose we have to be counted as one. 

 

The question that I often ponder at home is "Is there a better form of government?  Or, like someone once said,  it isn't perfect but it's the best we have.

 

Now it is deteriorating.  Next?   We have made a lot of mistakes that I am not sure can be corrected.   Think of the things we are no longer allowed to teach because we might offend this one or that one - or their parents.

 

I saw an article in Time magazine about all the great plans the millenials have in mind for us.   Some sounded good; some not.  But what turned me off fast was a picture of a group of (allegedly) millenials.  One was carrying a sign:  "Protect our guns".  All I could think of was how many children have been accidentally shot since "right to carry" went into effect.  Now teachers are carrying guns.  Doctors are carrying guns.  Cab drivers are carrying guns.  It's scary. 

 

I don't mean to start a debate about guns but that picture got to me.  A mistake our government made?     Does the article about failing democracies have anything to do with the extra freedoms we have been granted in consideration of individual rights? 

 

I can think of other things but I must not talk too much.  I want to hear what others think about why democracy is no longer working.



#4 GAHD

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 08:34 PM

There's valid reason to dislike current generation western democracy. It has bloated like most governments do ever since the last of the great generation lost power. I've jokingly told my friends we should start a political party reminiscent of Nee in Canada. Something who's ONLY goal is to slash and burn the fat and the excess buildup of laws and government taxes. Nothing else. Burn it down, enough is enough.



#5 Flummoxed

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Posted 30 January 2020 - 04:34 AM

There's valid reason to dislike current generation western democracy. It has bloated like most governments do ever since the last of the great generation lost power. I've jokingly told my friends we should start a political party reminiscent of Nee in Canada. Something who's ONLY goal is to slash and burn the fat and the excess buildup of laws and government taxes. Nothing else. Burn it down, enough is enough.

 

That might describe Brexit. No exit stratedgy, except exit at any cost. It could almost be a plan by an outside power, to take over the UK government. https://www.business...-donors-2019-11

 

Politicians repeatedly tell lies, and the media broadcast the lies without checking the facts, who owns the media?. People have a tendency if told a lie a thousand times to believe it, at least for a short while.

 

Another issue with dissatisfaction with democracy, might be changing demographics in the developed world. Ie ageing populations and reduced birth rates. The elderly are generally pessimistic about politicians due to a lifetime of being lied too. The young are generally optimistic and believe what they are told. They also are the achievers and want to do things with their lives. The elderley have a tendency to vote for right wing politicians. Whereas the young want to help improve society, and tend to vote more left wing.

 

When political parties are continually elected not reflecting the views of the young. Why wouldn't a growing dissatisfaction not manifest itself.

 

Another consideration is who are the politicians working for? Minority Lobby groups funding politicians do not do it out of kindness of heart? 

 

George Sores is a popular hate figure, if one person can fund a political election, who are those politicians working for https://www.business...he-right-2017-5



#6 VictorMedvil

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Posted 30 January 2020 - 04:48 AM

Well you know what I believe in political control through absolute power. I think the governments of the earth are weak and powerless to do any actual decision making. You don't see things like this in China or Russia, it is because there are so many different people that the power is spread over in western nations. There needs to be one ruling party or leader not many small voices then something may get done.

 

e8976381d9a2bc3de2412c976541-could-ameri

 


Edited by VictorMedvil, 30 January 2020 - 05:04 AM.


#7 Flummoxed

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Posted 30 January 2020 - 05:04 AM

Well you know what I believe in political control through absolute power. I think the governments of the earth are weak and powerless to do any actual decision making. You don't see things like this in China or Russia, it is because there are so many different people that the power is spread over in western nations.

 

How would you police absolute power. One police per normal person perhaps. I did a training course lots of years ago for apparently two of Chinese engineers, it became obvious one was the Engineer the other was his guard to stop him running off. When the engineer even wanted to go to the toilet, the security guard followed him. Not the way I would like to live my life.

 

China has the worlds biggest government, democracy? something like 4000 delegates, who rubber stamp the policies of the top 12 or so politicians. Imagine if the US or UK for instance could slip a mole in to the top 12, they could influence Chinese policy in their favor. Likewise if the Chinese or russians could slip a mole in as the President of the US or Priminister of England. Then the US and and UK who regularly **** with other countries internal policies might be put into a state of chaos/anarchy without even having to go to war. The intelligence services and military use the Art of war written by Tzu Hung http://classics.mit....Tzu/artwar.html

 

Who is going to win the chinese who wrote the book or the rest of the world who only have a part of it. 



#8 VictorMedvil

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Posted 30 January 2020 - 05:13 AM

How would you police absolute power. One police per normal person perhaps. I did a training course lots of years ago for apparently two of Chinese engineers, it became obvious one was the Engineer the other was his guard to stop him running off. When the engineer even wanted to go to the toilet, the security guard followed him. Not the way I would like to live my life.

 

China has the worlds biggest government, democracy? something like 4000 delegates, who rubber stamp the policies of the top 12 or so politicians. Imagine if the US or UK for instance could slip a mole in to the top 12, they could influence Chinese policy in their favor. Likewise if the Chinese or russians could slip a mole in as the President of the US or Priminister of England. Then the US and and UK who regularly **** with other countries internal policies might be put into a state of chaos/anarchy without even having to go to war. The intelligence services and military use the Art of war written by Tzu Hung http://classics.mit....Tzu/artwar.html

 

Who is going to win the chinese who wrote the book or the rest of the world who only have a part of it. 

There is no policing it by nature absolute power is absolute power, the weak shall fall before the strong a sort of justice to those that work hard enough to rule. It does not matter what the weak desire only what the strong desire, if the weak want their voices heard then become stronger.


Edited by VictorMedvil, 30 January 2020 - 05:19 AM.


#9 Flummoxed

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Posted 30 January 2020 - 05:22 AM

There is no policing it by nature absolute power is absolute power, the weak shall fall before the strong a sort of justice to those that work hard enough to rule.

 

And who would be the top dog? Empires always fail, being an emperor is an extremely dangerous job.



#10 VictorMedvil

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Posted 30 January 2020 - 05:24 AM

And who would be the top dog? Empires always fail, being an emperor is an extremely dangerous job.

By nature someone strong enough to hold the job for long enough to do anything, if you could not keep to together you would die. obviously the Strongest, The most Intelligent, and Most Cunning would survive and rule which is how evolution said it should be. We do it all backward with allowing the weak,stupid, and naive masses to vote on leaders, the masses wouldn't know a good leader if it hit them in the face. Hints why the masses do drugs and smoke cigarettes because during high school they had a bad leader that convinced them to do such things generally people follow toxic leadership that is generally bad for them. Do you really want people like that to have a say in the government? 


Edited by VictorMedvil, 30 January 2020 - 06:26 AM.


#11 hazelm

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Posted 30 January 2020 - 06:38 AM

That might describe Brexit. No exit stratedgy, except exit at any cost. It could almost be a plan by an outside power, to take over the UK government. https://www.business...-donors-2019-11

 

Politicians repeatedly tell lies, and the media broadcast the lies without checking the facts, who owns the media?. People have a tendency if told a lie a thousand times to believe it, at least for a short while.

 

Another issue with dissatisfaction with democracy, might be changing demographics in the developed world. Ie ageing populations and reduced birth rates. The elderly are generally pessimistic about politicians due to a lifetime of being lied too. The young are generally optimistic and believe what they are told. They also are the achievers and want to do things with their lives. The elderley have a tendency to vote for right wing politicians. Whereas the young want to help improve society, and tend to vote more left wing.

 

When political parties are continually elected not reflecting the views of the young. Why wouldn't a growing dissatisfaction not manifest itself.

 

Another consideration is who are the politicians working for? Minority Lobby groups funding politicians do not do it out of kindness of heart? 

 

George Sores is a popular hate figure, if one person can fund a political election, who are those politicians working for https://www.business...he-right-2017-5

Elderly vs Young; elderly vs young?  Which group out-numbers the other?  And where do you draw the line between the two groups? Where is all that good the young are trying and the elderly are killing - or trying to kill?  Where does blame fall? Do we even need to know that?  Crazy, mixed-up world and everyone has a bright idea.  Most of them, when they get in office never do what they had promised to do if they got there.


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#12 hazelm

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Posted 30 January 2020 - 08:07 AM

Something to stir into the stew:

 

https://mail.google....khsRQvssHdmhdLv



#13 Flummoxed

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Posted 30 January 2020 - 09:25 AM

Something to stir into the stew:

 

https://mail.google....khsRQvssHdmhdLv

 

you might have linked to link in your google account. Did you have another link in mind?

 

Elderly vs Young; elderly vs young?  Which group out-numbers the other?  And where do you draw the line between the two groups? Where is all that good the young are trying and the elderly are killing - or trying to kill?  Where does blame fall? Do we even need to know that?  Crazy, mixed-up world and everyone has a bright idea.  Most of them, when they get in office never do what they had promised to do if they got there.

What I was trying to point out, very badly perhaps. Was it appears that people were happier with democracy when there was a lot of younger people voting and things appeared to be changing the 1960s for example. The Kennedy era in the states.

 

Back in those days there had been a sudden increase in the birthrate following the second world war. And the elderly didnt normally live to be much more than 70 or 80, many died before ever having reached retirement. Now the retired age group in the developed world is increasing due to better medication, less smoking, etc. The elderly often look at the past with rose tinted spectacles. In the UK a greater majority of the elderly ie retired people with nothing to gain or lose by leaving europe came out and voted on mass for Brexit. 

 

I might be feeling a little predujiced, against any FWIT that voted for Brexit, and so be very disillusioned with the electoral system and politicians in general.

 

Now that the FUKEW have left the EU zone, with no apparent plan for future trade, it will take some time for those that voted brexit , to Brexit off, and die before the situation can be rectified. Approx 30 years should about do it unless some virus spreads to the UK wiping out the elderly. Then perhaps the minority younger generation, will be in the majority, and be able to reclaim their EU passports and travel freely around europe. The new elderly will be those who traveled freely around europe and much of the world on a european passport with out the need for a visa, except in police states. 

 

In the light of no one believing what politicians say anymore, should we have a law of treason for any politician deliberately misleading the public? Should newspapers be closed down for spreading lies?  Oh crap the politicians create the laws, so are unlikely to vote such new laws into power, but they can vote themselves massive pay rises and get pensions for life by getting themselves elected once.    

 

Perhaps a revolution, some riots and some anarchy, might be a good way forward. Destroy everything like what GAHD suggested.

Clearly I am angry about Brexit, so I might be feeling a little predujiced, against any FWIT that voted for Brexit. 



#14 hazelm

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Posted 30 January 2020 - 10:54 AM

you might have linked to link in your google account. Did you have another link in mind?

 

What I was trying to point out, very badly perhaps. Was it appears that people were happier with democracy when there was a lot of younger people voting and things appeared to be changing the 1960s for example. The Kennedy era in the states.

 

Back in those days there had been a sudden increase in the birthrate following the second world war. And the elderly didnt normally live to be much more than 70 or 80, many died before ever having reached retirement. Now the retired age group in the developed world is increasing due to better medication, less smoking, etc. The elderly often look at the past with rose tinted spectacles. In the UK a greater majority of the elderly ie retired people with nothing to gain or lose by leaving europe came out and voted on mass for Brexit. 

 

I might be feeling a little predujiced, against any FWIT that voted for Brexit, and so be very disillusioned with the electoral system and politicians in general.

 

Now that the FUKEW have left the EU zone, with no apparent plan for future trade, it will take some time for those that voted brexit , to Brexit off, and die before the situation can be rectified. Approx 30 years should about do it unless some virus spreads to the UK wiping out the elderly. Then perhaps the minority younger generation, will be in the majority, and be able to reclaim their EU passports and travel freely around europe. The new elderly will be those who traveled freely around europe and much of the world on a european passport with out the need for a visa, except in police states. 

 

In the light of no one believing what politicians say anymore, should we have a law of treason for any politician deliberately misleading the public? Should newspapers be closed down for spreading lies?  Oh crap the politicians create the laws, so are unlikely to vote such new laws into power, but they can vote themselves massive pay rises and get pensions for life by getting themselves elected once.    

 

Perhaps a revolution, some riots and some anarchy, might be a good way forward. Destroy everything like what GAHD suggested.

Clearly I am angry about Brexit, so I might be feeling a little predujiced, against any FWIT that voted for Brexit. 

Oh,  I forgot something.  Newsletters with Google addresses do not work on these forums.  I'll see what I can do as I do think the article is along the same line.  Sorry about that.

 

As for the rest --- maybe I had better go get that article to you.  If I can't I'll try to summarize and tell about the book it mentions.  Patience with a pre-Brexit non-citizen.  :-)


Edited by hazelm, 30 January 2020 - 10:59 AM.


#15 hazelm

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Posted 30 January 2020 - 11:12 AM

Now, let us hope this works.  I cannot test it until it is posted but I shall.  https://www.nytimes....klein-book.html



#16 GAHD

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Posted 30 January 2020 - 06:40 PM

The elderley have a tendency to vote for right wing politicians. Whereas the young want to help improve society, and tend to vote more left wing.

Minor nitpick here: The elderly want to help improve society too, so they tend to vote right/conservative. They have witnessed how Left/liberal have caused the most problems with poor planning and rushing into things half cocked. I'm not exactly elderly, but I vote right wing all the time from sheer cold logic and 'the lesser evil.'

Liberal/left is all about "suck on the government teat, we will give you free** stuff." This isn't as synonymous with "improving society" as you imply. They just rely on the young and the lazy to ignore fine print.

**Not really free, taxes will go up with the excuse of paying for the new free services, and a good percentage of the new income stream will be siphoned off into other government expenditures that were not given as the reason.
.
There's also the view that the young have nothing to lose so they like things that steal percentages from people who DO have things to lose. Those who have gone out and made an income and a legcy guard it because that's their blood sweat and tears refined into money and equity that the have-nothing young want the government to come steal under threat of gun.
 

When political parties are continually elected not reflecting the views of the young. Why wouldn't a growing dissatisfaction not manifest itself.

Another consideration is who are the politicians working for? Minority Lobby groups funding politicians do not do it out of kindness of heart?

George Sores is a popular hate figure, if one person can fund a political election, who are those politicians working for https://www.business...he-right-2017-5

. The young outnumber the old. If they don't vote that's their own damn fault? I mean, that's a downright Marxist "class guilt" argument from the start so why not take it the full class guilt route?