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America's Failed Health Care System.


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#18 Flummoxed

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 04:12 AM

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Do we want modern medicine to prolong life past 100 years? 

 

Does the US place less value on longevity than other countries? Does this account for the US citizen's shorter lifespan? And fwiw, does the US place less value on having lower infant mortality rates? Infant mortality is unusually higher in the US than most other comparable modern countries.

 

 

Life for some is about the quality and not the quantity. If someone is terminally ill why not if they request it, allow them to end it. 

Some countries allow assisted suicide, which could reduce health care costs. 

If some one does not know who they are and are suffering from dementia, what is the point  of prolonging their suffering.

Who wants to live to a hundred if your mind and body are buggered :) 


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#19 montgomery

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 12:54 PM



Life for some is about the quality and not the quantity. If someone is terminally ill why not if they request it, allow them to end it. 

Some countries allow assisted suicide, which could reduce health care costs. 

If some one does not know who they are and are suffering from dementia, what is the point  of prolonging their suffering.

Who wants to live to a hundred if your mind and body are buggered :)

All countries struggle with and then try to deal with those questions. It's likely that the happiest countries in the world deal more than others with those issues. For an example, I'll include abortion.

 

The US likely promotes more abortions rather than dissuade women from seeking abortions. That is because America would rather try to dictate what a woman chooses, rather than promote a [b[socially responsible solution [/b] to the problems of society. 

 

I would love to expand on the conversation if anybody gives a damn!

 

https://globalnews.c...da-and-the-u-s/

 

Canada's abortion rate is lower because Canada chooses to take a socially responsible position on abortion.

 

The US abortion rate is higher than Canada's because Americans are more interested in politics than the lives of unborn babies.


Edited by montgomery, 12 February 2019 - 01:02 PM.


#20 GAHD

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 07:18 PM

If you're a Canadian why are you failing to take the same side of this debate that I'm taking?...

Your wording alone shows the difference. You seem to assume because we are in the same "class" as Canadians that we are not individuals. The idea that you can guilt me into agreeing with a thought process because of an accident of birth geography is quite frankly ludicrous.

You're a Canadian like me, why do you fail to recognize multiculturalism in action? Why do you insinuate vilification of it? The answer is obviously because nationality means nothing to rational thought, and anyone implying otherwise is a fool.
 

A hint: Never try to rebut anything I say on Canada/US health care. You'll be walking right into a setup.

That reads like empty ego to me. Boisterous talk like this, and that above, is a perfect example of disconnect from reality. Please seek medical treatment with your nearest Psychologist, the wait times should only be a few months to a few years using Medicare.

Also: I'm far from the only critic of the system who would like to see some reform.
 

The only rebuttal that need answer to this nonsense is that taxes are roughly equal in the US and Canada.

Only on the federal Income tax level AFAIK. Provincial is generally higher on top of that, as well as other taxes like real estate and sales taxes.
Data: You'll note from 2005-2015 Canadians paid a rough average of 30% more taxes. It's only after Harper's management that things started to settle back down, and with how trudy has been doing things that number's going right back up there and likely going higher. I'm not sure if it's irony that the "happiest countries" you espouse about so much are right at the top of that list. 

Meanwhile, the economics of it are something that is not sustainable. It's very likely to drive inflation and taxation up to disastrous levels within a half generation unless there is serious reform. The banks are not the only ones doing that analysis, but they are at the forefront.

The meat and potatoes of "this nonsense"  you obviously don't have the attention span or cognitive flexibility to process isn't the taxes; it's the turn around time. Note the "private clinic option" (which had to go to supreme court in relation to various provinces) and how you have to pay exorbitantly high prices, just like in the states(good/fast/cheap: pick only two). Gotta wonder how that stuff is calculated into the figures if it is at all.
 

I suggest that any further defense of Trump you may have, should be taken to the Trump examination thread.

I'm curious where You get a "defense of trump" out of what I said? I mean, almost anyone could hit ctrl+f and type "trump" and look to see who mentions that name...I'm thinking it was not me? *does exactly that* oh, look 4 instances, all of them in your post. WEIRD. You should probably work on your attention to reality. You keep doing this kind of thing, and it's just sad to see someone deluding themselves and trying to lie and slander others.


Edited by GAHD, 12 February 2019 - 08:06 PM.
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#21 montgomery

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 06:58 PM

Could the higher abortion rate be linked to higher crime rates, like rape, or is it a lack of education on birth control. Are the education levels higher in Canada than the USA

 

I understand the more religious/republican areas of America like to conduct their lives and those of their families according to religious beliefs, they also disapprove of euthanasia according to religious beliefs, but have the highest murder rate. I have not checked these statements, but they came from the Dawkin website, which might be biased :)

The US is off the charts on rape I understand. But we must not allow Americans to make comparisons to 3rd. world countries. They need to stand up to first world countries. I think this could be pushing up US abortion rates but I don't think it accounts for the difference between Canada and the US. I think the answer is more in US attitudes of making the issue political, to the point of corrupting their very Supreme court. Whereas in Canada we try to leave the political behind and concentrate more on concern for women first. And then the lives of the unborn feteus second.

 

Americans are no doubt still living in the past with their god delusions and that is an influence on them that prevents a compassionate approach to the abortion issue.



#22 montgomery

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 07:05 PM

Your wording alone shows the difference. You seem to assume because we are in the same "class" as Canadians that we are not individuals. The idea that you can guilt me into agreeing with a thought process because of an accident of birth geography is quite frankly ludicrous.

You're a Canadian like me, why do you fail to recognize multiculturalism in action? Why do you insinuate vilification of it? The answer is obviously because nationality means nothing to rational thought, and anyone implying otherwise is a fool.
 

That reads like empty ego to me. Boisterous talk like this, and that above, is a perfect example of disconnect from reality. Please seek medical treatment with your nearest Psychologist, the wait times should only be a few months to a few years using Medicare.

Also: I'm far from the only critic of the system who would like to see some reform.
 

Only on the federal Income tax level AFAIK. Provincial is generally higher on top of that, as well as other taxes like real estate and sales taxes.
Data: You'll note from 2005-2015 Canadians paid a rough average of 30% more taxes. It's only after Harper's management that things started to settle back down, and with how trudy has been doing things that number's going right back up there and likely going higher. I'm not sure if it's irony that the "happiest countries" you espouse about so much are right at the top of that list. 

Meanwhile, the economics of it are something that is not sustainable. It's very likely to drive inflation and taxation up to disastrous levels within a half generation unless there is serious reform. The banks are not the only ones doing that analysis, but they are at the forefront.

The meat and potatoes of "this nonsense"  you obviously don't have the attention span or cognitive flexibility to process isn't the taxes; it's the turn around time. Note the "private clinic option" (which had to go to supreme court in relation to various provinces) and how you have to pay exorbitantly high prices, just like in the states(good/fast/cheap: pick only two). Gotta wonder how that stuff is calculated into the figures if it is at all.
 

I'm curious where You get a "defense of trump" out of what I said? I mean, almost anyone could hit ctrl+f and type "trump" and look to see who mentions that name...I'm thinking it was not me? *does exactly that* oh, look 4 instances, all of them in your post. WEIRD. You should probably work on your attention to reality. You keep doing this kind of thing, and it's just sad to see someone deluding themselves and trying to lie and slander others.

I know there are other critics of our health care system but I don't think there are any so extremist that they would trade for the US mess. Or, on the other hand, maybe there are some who don't care a lick for the people and put profit above everything else. I'm sure you're not .............

 

I think US taxatioin and Canada's taxation is roughly the same. You seem to be admitting that when you are on about Trudeau vs. Harper.

 

But I should tell you that as a socially responsible Canadian, I'm in favour of higher taxes, and especially on the very wealthy. The closer we come to the tax rates in the world's happiest country, the more happy Canada is going to be. It's one of the main keys to happiness. And then of course preventing US style income inequality that is destroying their country.

 

We need to talk about your misunderstanding on there being any pure socialist country or pure capitalist country in the world today. It's so important to understand that in order to understand how Trump sells his lies to those poor people. He says that America will never be a socialist country and they're all basically too stupid to call him on it. All they need know is that America will never be a pure capitalist country either. . 


Edited by montgomery, 13 February 2019 - 07:09 PM.


#23 GAHD

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 08:21 PM


...I think US taxatioin and Canada's taxation is roughly the same. You seem to be admitting that when you are on about Trudeau vs. Harper.

 

But I should tell you that as a socially responsible Canadian, I'm in favour of higher taxes, and especially on the very wealthy. The closer we come to the tax rates in the world's happiest country, the more happy Canada is going to be.


Nope, until 2015 canada 20-30% higher per-capita, clear distinction. And considering the other infrastructure we're not getting with that higher rate it's an important distinction especially when you say "roughly the same". The only reason Trudy vs Harp was mentioned was in relation to their terms. The aggregate data is still being put together for the recent government stuff, but the deficits and general economic policies are quite apparent; higher taxes because the gov. overspent irresponsibly the past 3 years are inevitable. That's besides the core issue, but important since it's very likely there will be more across-the-board cutbacks including to Medicare. The economics of it in relation to Medicare are very clear. It's also only mentioned because of your silly dismissal of the real points hinged on it. Once again, you lied; maybe because you are just regurgitating false information some lied to you about.

Happy is a relative term(unlike numerical ones like taxes), and I'm fairly certain you have a truncated view of it. Medicare is inefficient time wise, that simple. The wait lists are extraordinary. It also does not cover "real costs" such as medication in any significant way. We still require and have an optional private health insurance sector because it fails in that and other ways. I am not happy that I pay for something that fails to be of use to me when I need it to be of use, so there's one data point of "happiness" going down. ;) I'd much rather keep my money and pay for what I need when I need it, but then again I'm big into personal accountability and the freedoms that go along with that. One could say I can only flip the bird at the system BECAUSE I've had to do self-treatment (and done it appropriately so that I got to keep the finger), that whole personal responsibility mantra in action. The social system has been anything but responsible when I've really needed it, I can't see why someone would be happy with that.

 



#24 hazelm

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 06:43 AM

Montgomery,  you are speaking in generalizations when you say "America does this" and Canada does this".  I'll not speak for Canada but in America, Flummoxed has pointed out the problem with that by stating a specific issue.  A Catholic hospital will not allow abortion in their premises and government law allows them that right.  At the same time, it allows the patient a choice. The patient goes where he/she can get the treatment he/she wants.  When a country allows individual choices then the patient falls into his/her own culture.  As individuals, if he choose to not adhere to his own church (or other) teachings, he can choose to go elsewhere for treatment.  All you can say in general about "America" is what the law allows.  America's laws allow the individual to make a choice.  There was a news item just yesterday.  The NIH is in the process of reinforcing the patient's right to have a say in his/her treatment.  Some hospitals and doctors have not been following that law.  It can get confusing since law also allows hospital personnel some rights of choice.

 

Anyway,  Flummoxed says it better than I.   All I say is your generalizing is not helping your want for accuracy.


Edited by hazelm, 14 February 2019 - 06:43 AM.


#25 montgomery

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 11:25 AM

Nope, until 2015 canada 20-30% higher per-capita, clear distinction. And considering the other infrastructure we're not getting with that higher rate it's an important distinction especially when you say "roughly the same". The only reason Trudy vs Harp was mentioned was in relation to their terms. The aggregate data is still being put together for the recent government stuff, but the deficits and general economic policies are quite apparent; higher taxes because the gov. overspent irresponsibly the past 3 years are inevitable. That's besides the core issue, but important since it's very likely there will be more across-the-board cutbacks including to Medicare. The economics of it in relation to Medicare are very clear. It's also only mentioned because of your silly dismissal of the real points hinged on it. Once again, you lied; maybe because you are just regurgitating false information some lied to you about.



 

https://www.cnbc.com...es-a-catch.html

This link claims that the US is a bit higher overall but I'm willing to accept that it's pretty close to being the same. I didn't shop around for the link, I just chose the first one that came up in a search 'taxation in Canada vs. usa'.

 

Happy is a relative term(unlike numerical ones like taxes), and I'm fairly certain you have a truncated view of it. Medicare is inefficient time wise, that simple. The wait lists are extraordinary. It also does not cover "real costs" such as medication in any significant way. We still require and have an optional private health insurance sector because it fails in that and other ways. I am not happy that I pay for something that fails to be of use to me when I need it to be of use, so there's one data point of "happiness" going down.  ;) I'd much rather keep my money and pay for what I need when I need it, but then again I'm big into personal accountability and the freedoms that go along with that. One could say I can only flip the bird at the system BECAUSE I've had to do self-treatment (and done it appropriately so that I got to keep the finger), that whole personal responsibility mantra in action. The social system has been anything but responsible when I've really needed it, I can't see why someone would be happy with that.

 

You start off with 'happiness' and then jump to Medicare and wait times. I'll skip the happiness for you because you only say it's relative to something?? 

 

The US health care system is a dismal failure and every Canadian should know that. I know of no statistical analysis that says it can compare with other countries that operate under government run universal health care systems. So I think that's now been put to bed.

 

As to Canada's healthcare system, it's not the best in the world but it's rated much better than the US system. So any criticisms of Canada's system has to be limited to fixing it within the confines of government run universal health care. If you're talking about a close call at losing a finger, I'm sorry but I don't see how that applies here. I think that the best thing to do now is to either stay on the topic of failed US health care or take it off-topic to criticisms of Canada's heatlh care and suggestions on how to make it better.

 

Did you know that the US system was rated one place better than Cuba's, even considering all the huge disadvantages Cuba has to deal with as compared to the land of the gun, America? The WHO gave them 37th. place and 38th. place! 

 

So what do you want to talk about? The US failure or Canada's need to improve?



#26 montgomery

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 11:29 AM

Montgomery,  you are speaking in generalizations when you say "America does this" and Canada does this".  I'll not speak for Canada but in America, Flummoxed has pointed out the problem with that by stating a specific issue.  A Catholic hospital will not allow abortion in their premises and government law allows them that right.  At the same time, it allows the patient a choice. The patient goes where he/she can get the treatment he/she wants.  When a country allows individual choices then the patient falls into his/her own culture.  As individuals, if he choose to not adhere to his own church (or other) teachings, he can choose to go elsewhere for treatment.  All you can say in general about "America" is what the law allows.  America's laws allow the individual to make a choice.  There was a news item just yesterday.  The NIH is in the process of reinforcing the patient's right to have a say in his/her treatment.  Some hospitals and doctors have not been following that law.  It can get confusing since law also allows hospital personnel some rights of choice.

 

Anyway,  Flummoxed says it better than I.   All I say is your generalizing is not helping your want for accuracy.

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make but I'll just repeat: Abortion rates are higher in the US than in Canada. And the US is likely on the verge of making abortions illegal by taking down Roe vs. Wade. But more importantly, the US has made access to abortion next to impossible in many states. American women will resort to coathangers because of religious pressures and outdated insane beliefs.

 

We can pursue the topic any way you Americans like. Or Canadians like, whichever?



#27 montgomery

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 01:26 PM

https://www.griffinb...ystem-is-broken

 

Of the 5 factors considered, Canada comes close to being as bad as the US on Access. This should cause Canadians to concentrate more on access in order to remain ahead of the US on that factor alone. And on the rest of it, the US isn't even in the same ballpark as the happiest countries in the world which all subscribe to universal, government run health care! 

 

According to The Commonwealth Fund’s most recent study of 11 different countries’ healthcare systems, the United States comes in dead last. This study measures overall industry performance and each country is ranked by five factors that contribute to their score: care process (in which the U.S. placed 5th), access (11th), administrative efficiency (10th), equity (11th), and outcomes (11th).

Edited by montgomery, 14 February 2019 - 01:33 PM.