Moronium Posted June 8, 2018 Report Share Posted June 8, 2018 (edited) To claim that light waves and sound waves exist independently outside of the context of being perceived doesn't make sense. Why not? Was there anyone around to "perceive" the big bang (assuming it ever happened)? Could it not possibly happen if no one perceived it? Which came first--the formation of the earth, or the first human being who evolved on earth, at which time the earth magically sprang into existence ex nihilo? Edited June 8, 2018 by Moronium Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-wal Posted June 8, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2018 It doesn't have to be humans, any life capable of sensory perception. Before life it didn't exist in any way that can be imagined because it didn't look, sound, feel, taste or smell like anything. You could ask what it would have looked like, sounded etc like if there were someone around to perceive it but the fact is there wasn't. Now you could try making the case that the fact that you can even know what it would have looked like, sounded etc like if there were someone around to perceive it means that it does exist independently of perception. But that's just saying, if it did exist before it was perceived then we know how it would have been perceived so we know it did exist before it was perceived. Doesn't make any sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moronium Posted June 8, 2018 Report Share Posted June 8, 2018 (edited) It doesn't have to be humans, any life capable of sensory perception. Before life it didn't exist in any way that can be imagined because it didn't look, sound, feel, taste or smell like anything. You could ask what it would have looked like, sounded etc like if there were someone around to perceive it but the fact is there wasn't. Now you could try making the case that the fact that you can even know what it would have looked like, sounded etc like if there were someone around to perceive it means that it does exist independently of perception. But that's just saying, if it did exist before it was perceived then we know how it would have been perceived so we know it did exist before it was perceived. Doesn't make any sense. So, then, you're claiming that before there was 'any life capable of sensory percerption" there was no earth. Like, life started in mid-air, and, as soon as it did, the whole earth suddenly created itself so something could see it. Then the thing wasn't in mid-air, anymore, that it? Did the sun create itself at that same instant? The whole universe? Edited June 8, 2018 by Moronium Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-wal Posted June 8, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2018 No I'm saying that before it was perceived, the universe didn't exist in any form that can reasonably be considered to be real because it didn't look, sound... like anything. If you want to describe the universe before the point of first perception you have to do it without using the tools of perception. That's impossible, you can't have a universe without any properties. That's not a universe, it's just mathematical relationships. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moronium Posted June 8, 2018 Report Share Posted June 8, 2018 (edited) No I'm saying that before it was perceived, the universe didn't exist in any form that can reasonably be considered to be real because it didn't look, sound... like anything. If you want to describe the universe before the point of first perception you have to do it without using the tools of perception. That's impossible, you can't have a universe without any properties. That's not a universe, it's just mathematical relationships. Well, you're kinda startin to hedge, eh? "Cannot reasonably be considered to be real?" Was the earth there, or not? Before there was something to perceive it, I mean. Edited June 8, 2018 by Moronium Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-wal Posted June 9, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2018 Of course I'm not hedging. The level of dishonesty and misinterpretation of sources you use to debate is disgusting. Was the earth there, or not? Before there was something to perceive it, I mean. Not in any form that can be considered to be real. When you imagine the Earth before consciousness was around to perceive it you can't give it any physical properties because those are sensory based and therefore invalid, so it obviously didn't exist in any real sense before there was something to perceive it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moronium Posted June 9, 2018 Report Share Posted June 9, 2018 you can't give it any physical properties Don't say "you" when you mean "I". The whole of existence doesn't revolve around me. It revolves around YOU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-wal Posted June 9, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2018 Don't say "you" when you mean "I". The whole of existence doesn't revolve around me. It revolves around YOU.Does it? :)I always suspected as much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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