What makes Creationism so hard to believe in, and evolution so easy?

[eMTee]

Buddha never claimed himself to be god, but never the less, the Buddhists consider him god.

 

There is only ONE church in the world, and the members are normal human beings...sure they sin like every one else.

[bumab]

Buddha never claimed himself to be god, but never the less, the Buddhists consider him god.

 

That's not technically true, they just revere him. Although, I'm sure there are exceptions, and I'm no expert...

 

...sure they sin like every one else.

 

Just don't let that be the cop it it usually is used as...

[eMTee]

Just don't let that be the cop it it usually is used as...

the cop?

[DAK]

The Buddha was very careful not to even talk about god because he knew what the human mind via lower levels of conciousness could do to distort. And the following post is correct, most Buddhist don't revere him as god, but try to follow his teachings. I don't know what % of Buddhists consider he or other sages 'Avatars'... there have been many humans that have reached 'Buddha conciousness'.

 

Anyway... the point remains, no?

 

DAK

[eMTee]

Dak, Do the Buddhists by some means worship Buddha? Are they also looking for the truth, or fallowing his (Buddha's) teaching? Do they not believe that Buddha to this day has power and answers prayer?..do they not pray to Buddha? If Buddha is not their god, then who or what is?

[DAK]

I'm not going to get into all that... you can do your own research, I don't think it's THAT relevant to the thread actually. What is interesting to the scientists here is that the Buddha {and most true spiritual seekers} searched for TRUTH. Much of Buddhism and especially Taoism is painstaking observation and research over thousands of years. Much more than most Westerners realize was also written and handed down verbally. The next paradigm of reality is all there for anyone to see... but of course it's hard to understand on the strictly intellectual level.

 

DAK

[Zohaar818]

I think part of the problem, Zohaar, is that "creationism" here seems to mean a narrow definition... and that definition seems to be one deemed to be from the "Christian Fundamentalist" camp.

 

It's easy to see why that would happen, since 'Creationism" in our society has come be attached to Christian Fundamentalists thanks to media exposure. From my point of view, I'd use a totally different context {the one you use with that link} when dealing with that faction, than I would if dealing with someone without the attachment to certain biblical passages and a potentially falacious interpretation of such, and more interested in the concept itself. Many would say "who would care except that faction?" Well, that's exactly the problem, 'Creationism" if looked at in that way gets little attention... and for good reason. There are a few words in a 2000 year old text???

 

My comment would be that to dismiss 'creationsim' based on the fundamentalist viewpoint is easy but a mistake. The question remains "is there a greater power of conciousness affecting things"? As usual the fundamentalists are a two edged sword... on the one hand they keep the 'idea' alive... on the other some of their assertions are so easily dismissed as to make it easy to drop the whole thing.

 

I would propose that the real question is: Does a greater power, field, god, whatever, exist?? Because if so, how could it NOT be {and have done so in the past} affecting evolution?? There is plenty of buzz around about possible similarities between the emerging view of the 'unified field' in physics and explaination of reality by mystics, sages, avatars {Christ, Buddha, etc}, through history. It should also be noted that a "Church"... Catholic or otherwise IS NOT divine... it is a human institution. As your link points out {and any honest person would agree} churches sin like everyone else. Like the evolution issue however, that fact does not preclude potential truths in original religious teachings OR the existance of god.

 

I enthusiastically recommend these three books for those interested in the "science meeting spirituality" concept:

 

http://www.veritaspub.com/

 

DAK

 

Dear DAK,

 

If you will review the posts I submitted on this subject over the last month or so you'll see that you are preaching to the converted.

I personally think the 'Creationists' would do far better to cite evidence other than Biblical texts to support their case [as I have great issues with it as a text and moreso with convetional [aka King James] interpretations being put forth by folks who know nothing of its origins etc.

You will also find that I made links to sites that cite anomalies in the geologic record and archeological record for which conventional [evolutionist] theory do not account or can't explain.

If an argument wants to be fought on those grounds..fine!

But to those who believe the Bible to be the unaltered Holy word of God as dictated to Moses and the prophets..yada yada..I offer my sincerest sympathies.

 

Like you I believe there must indeed be a unifying field upon which our illusion of the universe is projected..or within which 'creation' can take place.

But to ascribe mystic, holy, omnipotent intelligence to such a field is ..well let me put it this way...it is like fish thinking of the ocean as God since it pervades their entire 'universe'...and they can't imagine life without it..and so therefore starfish and tuna all must have been designed by the 'Ocean'....

If God is an intelligence it is a collective intelligence..an Awareness...who doesn't take humans personally and didn't design earth. 'God' ..is. Period.

What we have in the Bible isn't the record of God designing humans it is the record of advanced intelligences interfering with human development..and to me that is a BIG difference.

[Zohaar818]

Try this link instead...

http://www.mysteries-megasite.com/main/bigsearch/bible-1.html

 

As for the Bible fraud site being spam...I think it's because you didn't wait for the flash intro to finish..or because you didn't hit the skip intor button..once inside you will see quotes and relevant info..or just type in Bible Fraud to google and see what comes up.

Or just read this:

http://www.davidicke.net/religiousfrauds/christianity/piousfraud.html

 

Want an excerpt?.....

Fraud in the Bible

 

or

It Sucks That You Don't Know

Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic

What is Pious Fraud?

 

Pious fraud was a common technique employed by early Christian writers to make a point. Their intention was to convert anyone and everyone by any means available. One of the more persuasive methods was to write a text and falsely tell others that it was written in first person. For example, the four canonized gospel tales were not written by Matthew, Mark, Luke or John. That has been a well known fact for about 200 years. And to this day, no one knows who the gospel stories were written by. These texts are perfect examples of pious fraud. Pious fraud is the foundation of the deception known as Christianity and it continues to this day.

 

During the first couple of centuries of the Common Era the early Christian priestcraft, which would eventually become the early Catholic fathers, were in the process of assimilating religions from all over Europe. Ultimately the new religion become known as the Christian religion, or more accurately The Catholic Church. The Bible was put together by hundreds of people who were either at the head of the fraud or were pawns in its assembly. Once the original languages were translated into Latin, it was only a matter of time before the original language nuances could be discarded. Ever wonder why it was punishable by death to read the Bible during the Middle Ages? Punishable by death by the common folk to read it, that is. Well, the reason was that the priestcraft was well aware of the errors, inconsistencies and flat-out lies that riddled the Bible. If the common man found out, it could have been the death of the Church's authority, power and control over the masses. And since the original languages are rarely, if ever, used by those who read the Bible (well, those who actually READ it), the fraud is perpetuated.

 

When a pious fraud is knowingly perpetuated in the name of power and money, you have deception. Remember, 1700-2000 years ago, when these texts were being assembled into a 'new testament', the vast majority of humanity was illiterate. Science was not known. Demons rules the world. Anything could be put forth and said to be 'absolute truth' when it was in fact, completely fraudulent.

 

What is the implication of this? The implication is self-evident. The story of Genesis, that Christian proselytizers love to advance (altho it is part of the much older Jewist texts), is a complete and utter forgery. In that story we are led to believe that there was a single god who created the earth, etc. in 6 days. Not only has science proven the timeline to be completely false, the religious aspect is a complete fabrication. At the time that the Genesis story was supposed to have been written the Hewbrew people were not monotheistic. That's history. They believed in many gods and Genesis proves it. The story actually goes back to before the Hebrews were a distinct people-it is not Hebrew in origin.

 

 

 

Pious Fraud in Translation

 

Let's take a look at the very first words of the book of Genesis. Note very carefully that the Hebrew culture, at the time of this writing, was not monothestic, but rather, polytheistic. Will your priest, minister or preacher tell you that? No. But you can find out for yourself with a simple dictionary.

 

The Hebrew word for God is el; the plural is elohim, gods. What is the first sentence in the Bible?

 

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Gen. 1:1).

 

Here is Genesis 1:1 in Hebrew (transliterated into the Latin alphabet, of course):

 

"Bereshith bara elohim," etc.,

 

"In-beginning created (the) gods (the) heavens and (the) earth."

[Zohaar's note here...I speak hebrew fluently and this, too is a bad translation..the first line in Genesis is actually 'At first...the gods made the sky and land"]

 

In the same chapter the word "elohim" (gods) is used thirty times., Those gods are the ones who created the 'universe' in 6 days.

 

To clarify, here is the translation of the Hebrew text of Genesis 1. Notice how Jewish and Christian 'fathers' don't bother to tell you what the original text says. They would like you to believe that a single god created everything. But, they messed up big time and actually translated it properly. In plain English, the translation reads 'let us make man in our image':

 

Here are three examples of the Hebrew plural gods mentioned in Genesis: 1. "And-said elohim (gods), let-US-make man (adam) in-image-OUR, after-likeness-OUR" (1:26).

 

2. And when "adam" had eaten of the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge, "the Lord God" said, "Behold, the-man has become like one of US, to know good and evil" (3:27).

 

3. And when the Tower of Babel was being built: "The Lord [Heb. Yahveh] said ... Come, let US go down," etc.

 

When speaking of the Hebrew deity, Yahveh, elohim, (gods) is used in the Hebrew texts, The plural elohim is used 2570 times. It is always falsely translated to the singular "God", thus falsely making us believe that this text was written at a time when the Hebrew people were monothestic, when it clearly is the case (written at least 2570 times, no less!) that they WERE NOT.

 

In the three Genesis verses above, there are three different designations of the Hebrew deity or deities: elohim, (gods), falsely translated "God":

 

Lord God (Heb. Yahveh-elohim); and Lord (Heb. Yahveh). Yahveh is the proper name of the Hebrew God, which, in English, is Jehovah.

 

Yahveh-elohim is a Hebrew "construct-form" which is translated to "Yahveh-of-the-gods." Invariably these personal names were falsely translated "Lord" and "Lord God," respectively, for purposes of pious fraud.

 

First Man, First Woman

 

There was no first man "Adam," according to the Hebrew text. The word adam in Hebrew is a common noun, meaning man in a generic sense and in Genesis 1:26, it states:

 

"And elohim (gods) said, Let us make adam (man)"; and so "elohim created ha- adam (the-man); ... male and female created he them" (1: 27).

 

In the second creation story, where man is first made alone:

 

"Yahveh formed ha-adam (the-man) out of the dust of ha-adamah-the ground" (2:7).

 

Man is called in Hebrew adam because he was formed out of adamah, the ground; just as in Latin man is called homo because he was formed from humus, the ground. Early Christian father Lactantius stated it as 'homo ex humo' ('man from the ground', or 'dust' as it commonly stated today).

 

The forging of the name Adam from the Hebrew noun adam into a mythical proper name Adam, was after the so-called Exodus. The fraud in the forging of fictitious genealogies from "in the beginning" to Father Abraham.

 

And this wasn't done by Christians, but rather by early Hebrew priests. Nonetheless, early Christians took this deception and used it for their own newly forged religion.

 

Who has a Soul?

 

In Genesis 1 is the account of the creation of the elohim-gods-on the fifth day, of "nephesh hayyah" which is "the moving creature that hath life," and of "nephesh hayyah-every living creature" out of the waters (1:20, 21); and on the sixth day of "nephesh hayyah-the living creature" out of the ground (1:24); and he gave to ha-adam-the-man dominion over "kol nephesh hagyah-everything wherein there is life," (1:30.)

 

The Hebrew text states that all animal living creatures are by God called "nephesh hayyah," literally "living soul".

 

In Chapter 2 is the history of ha-adam made from ha-adamah; and, in contrast to these lowly "living creatures" (nephesh hayyah), Yahveh-clohim "breathed into his nostrils nishmath hayyim -- (living breaths), and ha-adam became nephesh hayyah-a living soul". (2:7)

 

In Hebrew everywhere you read the word nephesh it simply means soul, and hayyah (living) is the feminine singular adjective from hai, life.

 

In the original Hebrew texts, Man was created exactly the same as the other animals. All had or were 'nephesh hayyah' or living souls.

 

Remember, tho, that the reason there are two creation stories is because two culture's stories of creation were woven together by the early Hebrew priestcraft.

 

Unknown scribes, in translation, made animals merely creatures, and "Creation's masterpiece, Man," became a "living soul." They falsely altered these plain words so as to deceive us into believing a special God-breathed soul is in man which is completely different from animal that merely perishes to dust.

 

The implication of this is that someone has fraudulently decided that we are a special creation that has a soul, and eliminated the actual words of what Genesis says. Now all other animals don't have a soul. According to the story, all things that live have a soul. So what happened here? Forgery. That's what happened.

 

Chalk one up for vegetarians.

 

There Was No Continuous Hebrew Monotheistic Culture

 

When Yahveh appeared to Moses in the Burning Bush, and announced himself as "the God of thy fathers," he was a total stranger to Moses. How do I know? Read the account. It doesn't take a scholar to read where Moses ASKS who's taking. No, Moses wasn't merely surprised at the voice…he simply didn't know what was going on. (The fact that Moses is just a rehash of the Egyptian Mises is another essay altogether. But for the purposes of this essay, I'm pretending that Moses was a real person.)

 

Moses did not know this Yahveh, and had never heard of him. So that he asked, "What is thy name?" -so that he could report it to the people back home in Egypt, who had never heard it. After some intermission, the God came directly to the point, and declared-here are the exact words-one of the most notorious falsities in the Hebrew text:

 

"And elohim spake unto Moses, and said unto him., anoki Yahveh -- I am the Lord!

 

"And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of el-shaddai, but by my name Yahveh (JEHOVAH) was I not known to them." (Ex. 6:2, 8.)

 

The Hebrew God for the first time since the world began, is "revealed" to mankind the "ineffable name" of Yahveh, here first appearing in the Bible translations, and there printed as JEHOVAH in capital letters; for more vivid and awe-inspiring impression.

 

But this is a notorious lie-since we known that Moses did not write the first five books of the Hebrew text.

 

In Genesis 2:4, the name YAHVEH first appears; "in the day that Yahveh-elohim made the earth and the heavens." Its first recorded use as a mystical personage, was when Eve "conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from Yahveh-the Lord." (Gen. 4:1.)

 

The personal name YAHVEH occurs in the Book of Genesis one hundred and fifty-six times. It's spoken dozens of times by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as any one can read in Genesis. Every single time that the title "the Lord" and "the Lord God" appears, it is a false translation by the priests for the Hebrew personal name YAHVEH.

 

Throughout the Hebrew "scriptures" it occurs thousands of times: "The sacred name occurs in Genesis ~156 times; and is found in the Old Testament approximately 6000 times, either alone or in along with another Divine name."

 

More exactly, the Tetragrammaton (YHVH), appears in the Old Testament 6823 times as the proper name of God as the God of Israel. As such it serves to distinguish him from the gods of the other nations." Thus was the Hebrew tribal god YAHVEH distinguished from Bel, and Chemosh, and Dagon, and Shamash, and the dozens of "gods of the nations". Just as James would distinguish his name from Rudolph, or Cary, this was precisely the Hebrew usage-to distinguish one heathen god from another.

 

And this the pious translators, foisting their fraud on us, sought to hide, giving names to all the "other gods," but suppressing a name for the Hebrew deity, who as "the Lord," or "the Lord God," was high and unique, "a god above all gods," -the one and only true God-thru the use of a tetragrammaton.

 

But yet a more malicious and evil-intentioned deception, 6828 times, is the name of the Hebrew God concealed by false rendition for the deliberate purpose of forging the whole Hebrew texts, as translated, into a semblance of harmony with the false declaration of Exodus 6:3, that "by my name YAHVEH was I not known unto them."

 

Search as one may, outside Exodus 6:3, the god-name YAHVEH (Jehovah) is never to be found in the translations, except in Psalm 78:18, and Isaiah 12:2 and 26:4. (But they are irrelevant for this discussion because those passages were written well after the original 5 books were forged.)

 

The false translations thus "make truth to be a liar," the lie of Exodus 6:3 to seem the truth; and a barbarous heathen tribal god among a hundred neighbor and competitive gods to be the nameless One Lord God of the Universe....

 

Who is this Jehovah and Where Does He Live?

 

What does this imply? It implies this: the Hebrew-Christian-One-God is a patent forgery and myth; a mythological Father-god can have no "only begotten Son"; Jesus Christ is a myth even before he is mythically born by the forged whimsy of the early Christian 'fathers'.....

 

A Few Translations

 

These translations, while only three in number, will change your whole way of thinking about what is being presented in your Bible.

 

Son of Man: In all three major Semitic languages (Aramaic, Hebrew, and Arabic) the term barnasha means "human being". Jesus often referred to himself as a human being (28 times in the Gospels). Barnasha comes from bar (son) and nasha (man). The meaning of barnasha has created a lot of confusion in the Gospels. It is impossible to translate the Aramaic term of barnasha literally as "son of man" - and yet most biblical translators have and still do just that to this day. In the Aramaic language the word bar is combined with many other words to create different meanings - most specifically is means a "likeness." For example barabba means "resembles his father". Barhila translated literally would mean "son of power" but in reality it means "soldier". So when we read in the Gospels the phrase "son of man" it should be read correctly as "human being".

 

Son of God: The word bar means a likeness or resemblance to the suffix word. The Aramaic term that Son of God comes from is bardalaha. Translated literally as "son of God" it does not mean this. Bardalaha in reality means "like God" or "God-like". So when Jesus is referred to as the "Son of God" we should read this correctly as "God-like" or "like God". So what does that tell you about the translation we read in today's Bibles? It tells you that Jesus was not the Son of God - but that he was "God-like". There is a big difference. Jesus himself repeatedly referred to himself as a "human being". The Aramaic reference does not mean one is physically divine - it means there is an important spiritual relationship between God and the man whom is bestowed that phraseology. In addition, don't forget that the Council of Nicea in 325 CE voted to change the human Jesus to a supernatural being. It wasn't until that time that any church thought of Jesus as such.

 

Only Begotten Son: The world ehedaya is Aramaic. It is very important to understand its meaning when hearing that phrase being bantered about. When we read that Jesus was God's "only begotten son" - it is an incorrect translation of the Aramaic word. The term is found exclusively in the Gospel of John. The phrase we read in English was translated from a Greek word, monogenes. Monos means "single" or "one" and genos means "kind". So the Greek translation originally was with "one-of-a-kind". So where does 'begotten' come from? The Greek word genos is distantly related to the verb gennan which means "to beget". Thus, to translate monogenes as "only begotten" is improper and incorrect--which is an indication of an ill-trained translator being involved with the text. The actual translation should be "unique son" or "one-of-a-kind". The Aramaic word ehedaya means "sole heir" and "the beloved". So when we combine monogenes ehedaya we get "one-of-a-kind, beloved son". That's considerably different from 'only begotten son'.

 

http://www.mksmith.org/

 

I could go on and on but why? Like I said ..you believ or you don't according to your own lights and no amount of evidence one way or another will sway a 'true believer'.

Just count me out as one of them...

 

-Sincerely

Zohaar

[Chacmool]

What we have in the Bible isn't the record of God designing humans it is the record of advanced intelligences interfering with human development..and to me that is a BIG difference.

 

Interesting opinion, Zohaar. When and how do you believe advanced intelligences interfered with human development? Does this mean that you don't think evolution on Earth happened spontaneously? Do you have references to sites where I can do some background reading on this point of view?

[Zohaar818]

Interesting opinion, Zohaar. When and how do you believe advanced intelligences interfered with human development? Does this mean that you don't think evolution on Earth happened spontaneously? Do you have references to sites where I can do some background reading on this point of view?

 

Read literally..the first sentence of the Bible describes the process of terra forming. The same process that we are considering for planet Mars. First you must create an atmosphere and in that process make the land habitable..we speculate that introducing certain fungal spores on the planet and letting them thrive for a decade or two would in turn introduce oxygen into the atmosphere...it would also enrich the soil making it suitable for more complicated plant species and possible insects. I know it all sounds hypothetical..but if you take the long view..as interstellar travellers would have to..entirely plausible. You could remake mars in earth's image in only 6 simple steps, provided you had the idea, the technology [we we just about do] and the patience.

 

To seed a planet or transplant some species from one growth habitat to another doesn't mean you discount the process of evolution. Species evolve..of that I have no doubt.

But the record we have on earth shows no consistent pattern of chronology..by that I mean..we have incidences of exteme variation occurring all at once and we have millions of years between where nothing much happened. So how to explain it....

 

But the essence of my argument is that in the holy books..each and every one of them..it is stated clearly that God and his angels descended, and in one way or another managed to interfere with us...be it through genetic engineering, or simply turning one tribe against another and set to conquest, rape, pillage.seek gold and make blood sacrifices...

WE delight in our arrogant assumption that the tales told by our ancestors must be superstitions or fantasy, even though we think the book of books was written by God...and even though they have left us architectural monuments the likes of which we cannot duplicate and attribute the knowledge to build such things as having come from somewhere else [off planet]..I mean ask any free -mason !!!

 

So, bottom line YES, I really do think we have been interfered with and continue to be interefered with by off planet intelligences..and so do most of your generals.

 

Zohaar

[Biochemist]

All-

 

This is one of two threads in this forum that has wandered quite widely. SInce we are at over 400 posts, I suggest that we start new threads on the new topics that have surfaced.

 

Thanks.

[DAK]

<you'll see that you are preaching to the converted.>

 

Yes, I'm just starting fresh and putting forth my own take is all... not preaching.

 

<But to ascribe mystic, holy, omnipotent intelligence to such a field is ..well let me put it this way...it is like fish thinking of the ocean as God since it pervades their entire 'universe'...and they can't imagine life without it..and so therefore starfish and tuna all must have been designed by the 'Ocean'....>

 

Like reality probably actually is, the above requires pure 'subjectivity' to even speak about. First of all, in a way all the sea creatures ARE "designed by the ocean". As to the rest... well, that's very subjective as well... if we are all "of" the field {god}, then on would need not stretch to: ""mystic, holy, intelligence"". Personally I think 'holy' came about to mean 'beyond the understanding of the mind'... which so far has proven true of "the field". Further, my understanding of the working of the mind [essentially verbal thinking... linear domain] points to a continuation of that state.

 

"If God is an intelligence it is a collective intelligence..an Awareness...who doesn't take humans personally and didn't design earth. 'God' ..is. Period."

 

Agreed... although, the design part is subjective or course.... the earth would be "of it's design" one would assume. And therefore subjectively, one could say that 'creationsim' is true vs a random mutation model.

 

Again, I see no need to go to the bible to argue these things... the non-linear domain can't be described easily using linear {written language} easily... especially when the authors didn't even know that!! So, while I'm sure there is a LOT of truth in the bible {new testiment minus revelations... Jesus teachings}, it's interpretation is going to vary radically depending on the conciousness level of the reader. For instance, what does "love" mean to mother Teresa vs a hardened criminal missing a chromosome or two?

 

DAK

[DAK]

<But the essence of my argument is that in the holy books..each and every one of them..it is stated clearly that God and his angels descended, and in one way or another managed to interfere with us...be it through genetic engineering, or simply turning one tribe against another and set to conquest, rape, pillage.seek gold and make blood sacrifices...>

 

What is a 'holy' book?? What was included into the Catholic bible for instance was fought over, changed, argued about for centuries... as is their translation. So it is of human translation. There are parts however that are probably almost direct quotes of Jesus Christ, which, assuming he was an avatar would be quite valuable. I would argue that your point is entirely subjective, and that it is easy to see that the actual teachings of Christ, the Buddha, and various Taoist masters {in fact all sages through history} are actually the same, and that NOWHERE is it taught that god is doing anything but being. How can god interfere with..... itself?

 

"even though we think the book of books was written by God..."

 

Much has been written by very high level masters {Maharshi, etc} BUT no one thinks that god wrote the bible that I am aware of. Is there one word anyone claims Jesus to have written?

 

DAK

[Biochemist]

Gang-

 

I am going to close this thread becasue it is too long an varied. We are on (at least) two separate unrelated topics.

 

DAK, Zohar- You guys are having some interesting discussions, but they are only tangential at best to the thread topic. I suggest you start new threads.

 

Thanks.