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#35 Moontanman

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 10:09 AM

More Neanderthal news!

Three Neanderthal Sub-groups Confirmed
ScienceDaily (Apr. 15, 2009) — The Neanderthals inhabited a vast geographical area extending from Europe to western Asia and the Middle East 30,000 to 100,000 years ago. Now, a group of researchers are questioning whether or not the Neanderthals constituted a homogenous group or separate sub-groups (between which slight differences could be observed).


Three Neanderthal Sub-groups Confirmed

#36 maddog

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 01:34 PM

I would like to use this thread as a place to discuss Neanderthals and their relationship to us. Questions like how close to us were they, are they part of us now and how human were they. Here are few links to get the discussion started.

More Human-Neandertal Mixing Evidence Uncovered

I have often speculated that this was so. Look at the few/rare characteristics, recessive
excessive hair on the backs of males, heavy brow ridges on some males.

I think if we could completely map the genome of the Neanderthrals that we could look
for an common ancestor (if one is available) or if intermixing, when did that occur.

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#37 maddog

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 01:53 PM

Thanks for the post dude, Neanderthals fascinate me, ......

In case you aren't aware, there is a Sci Fi series -- I think the first book is "Hominids" that
is speculation about finding a Parallel universe, one where Neanderthrals became the dominant
species and Cro-Magnon went extinct. It is a fascinating tale (I have read two books so far).

For instance, Neanderthrals have much better noses, so their males "know" when the
female is ready to ovulate (so no "I have a headache" among the Neanders).

maddog

#38 Moontanman

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 02:23 PM

That is a great trilogy maddog, I read it a couple years ago, it makes you think of how different Neanderthals might have been and if our way is the only way society can progress. I had a good friend who looked so much like the proverbial Neanderthal it wasn't even funny. I teased him about when I wanted to really get him going. Neanderthals fascinate me, it'd be great if they still existed, possibly give us something to compare our selves with. We'd probably enslaved or killed them all by now :)

#39 carlton-temple

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 06:39 AM

Neanderthals and homo/saps interbred ! Go and look at the average football hooligans !Me I don't mind homo/saps at all, specially the female ones; an I got a hyoid an lots of other bones to !

#40 sallynewell

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Posted 26 April 2009 - 09:06 AM

It would be great to go back to the original question, and I would love to have someone explain the latest on the lineages, hopefully with some links to some reasonable mid level references

#41 Moontanman

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Posted 26 April 2009 - 09:52 AM

sally, have you read the entire thread? Lots of link to the things you ask. I post Neanderthal info here as quickly as I find in it. If you have specific questions let me know and if they aren't in the thread already I'll look for them.

#42 maddog

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 11:41 AM

That is a great trilogy maddog, I read it a couple years ago, it makes you think of how different Neanderthals might have been and if our way is the only way society can progress. :thumbs_up

I read the first two and loved them as well. Yeah, what really intrigued me was the theory
in the story that Neanderthals greater olfactory ability such that a male could "smell" when
a female was in "heat" and ready for ovulation.

maddog

#43 maddog

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 11:44 AM

It would be great to go back to the original question, and I would love to have someone explain the latest on the lineages, hopefully with some links to some reasonable mid level references

From what I have read that there are a lot more branchings in the last 5 million years
than was thought before.

Maybe do a google search on

1. Australopithecus Ramidus
2. Homo Habilus
3. Homo Erectus
4. Australopithecus Afroensis

to name a few.

maddog

#44 Moontanman

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 08:55 AM

Neandertals, the 'stupid' cousins of modern humans were capable of capturing the most impressive animals. This indicates that Neandertals were anything but dim. Dutch researcher Gerrit Dusseldorp analysed their daily forays for food to gain insights into the complex behaviour of the Neandertal. His analysis revealed that the hunting was very knowledge intensive.

Neandertals sophisticated and fearless hunters

#45 Moontanman

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 08:57 AM

One of science's most puzzling mysteries - the disappearance of the Neanderthals - may have been solved. Modern humans ate them, says a leading fossil expert.

How Neanderthals met a grisly fate: devoured by humans | Science | The Observer

#46 maddog

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 02:33 PM

Two books by Bryan Sykes,

1. The Seven Daughters of Eve
2. Saxons, Vikings and Celts

Both are excellent books describing the genetic research using Mitochondrial DNA to determine
who is related to whom. In the first book, Bryan show how in Europe and elsewhere that
Neanderthals are not in any way our ancestors. There in particular was No "sharing" of
genes or genetic mixing going on between Cro-Magnon and Neandertal peoples.

Personally, I was thinking there may have been a latent mix. Bryan assures me this was
not the case.

I am reading the second book now. Both appear to be fascinating books. :hyper:

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#47 Moontanman

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 07:04 PM

It seems more than a little freaky to think of Cro-Magnons eating Neanderthals but we eat gorillas and chimps. Humans killing them for food is a significant impact on their populations. Possibly we just saw Neanderthals as just an animal we used as food?

#48 enorbet2

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 01:44 AM

Both are excellent books describing the genetic research using Mitochondrial DNA to determine
who is related to whom. In the first book, Bryan show how in Europe and elsewhere that
Neanderthals are not in any way our ancestors. There in particular was No "sharing" of
genes or genetic mixing going on between Cro-Magnon and Neandertal peoples.

Personally, I was thinking there may have been a latent mix. Bryan assures me this was
not the case.

I am reading the second book now. Both appear to be fascinating books. :)

maddog


Besides the fact that this is still a heated controversy and by no means decided yet there is some empirical progress.

Research News: Neanderthal Genome Sequencing Yields Surprising Results and Opens a New Door to Future Studies

Human Brain Carries at Least One Neanderthal Gene - This gene must have been useful in adapting to Eurasian climate - Softpedia

Many Scientists are looking forward to attempting to determine, once the map is complete and compared to Cro Magnon, whether it is likely that instead of Cro Magnon being more modern in certain areas such as speech, it may be that Neandethal either taught speech to Cro Magnon or greatly advanced it. Some genetic evidence might corroborate the logic based on weapons that Neanderthal needed to cooperate during hunting since it was up close and personal and implies multiple hunters on one animal whereas the background and lighter, throwable spears imply Cro Magnon were more individualistic and less in need of communication and cooperation to survive.

Biology isn't my best subject but I recall that the book and PBS sponsored documentary titled "The Journey of Man" makes the case for eschewing mitochondrial DNA in favor of following markers on the Y chromosome for additional information not possible through mDNA. More here:

The Journey of Man: A Genetic Odyssey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We may never know some details but the gap between conjecture and knowledge is beginning to close some.

#49 enorbet2

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Posted 23 May 2009 - 04:58 AM

Link and excerpt follows:


Neanderthal Code | National Geographic Channel

Then, in 2006, scientists at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany began working with a Connecticut company, 454 Life Sciences, on a project to map the Neanderthal genome, using DNA fragments extracted from Neanderthal remains. While that work is still in progress, one early finding from analysis of Neanderthal DNA suggests that it may well lead to yet another significant shift in our perception of Neanderthals. Researchers have discovered that Neanderthals had exactly the same version of the FoxP2 gene, which is associated with the use of language, as modern humans — a similarity that would be difficult to explain if the two groups evolved separately. The discovery also raises the possibility that modern humans acquired the language gene by interbreeding with Neanderthals. If that proves to be true, it would mean that Neanderthals not only were our long-ago relatives, but contributed an important part of what it means to be human.

#50 Moontanman

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 09:57 AM

Virtual Reconstruction Of A Neanderthal Woman’s Birth Canal Reveals Insights Into Evolution Of Human Child Birth

ScienceDaily (May 29, 2009) — Researchers from the University of California at Davis (USA) and the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig (Germany) present a virtual reconstruction of a female Neanderthal pelvis from Tabun (Israel).

Virtual Reconstruction Of A Neanderthal Woman’s Birth Canal Reveals Insights Into Evolution Of Human Child Birth

#51 Moontanman

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Posted 11 July 2009 - 09:23 AM

This is an idea I have long wondered about, did disease brought in by Homo sapiens wipe out the Neanderthals?


jp.dk - Illness brought down early human rival: scientist