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Tunguska!


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#18 LaurieAG

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Posted 29 June 2008 - 07:51 PM

Hi Moontanman,

I wonder how any other important things in history were decided by random events that had no real basis in the reality of the situation.


By the looks of things quite a lot. The Mesopotamia was one of the first civilisation areas that recorded astrological events and rejected the beliefs about dire omens from comets, meteorites and eclipses when they realised that they were cyclical and repeated. Considering that most, if not all, of the reasons for invading Mesopotamia recently were in the realms of fantasy, maybe it this decision was made on a similar basis (nothing would surprise me).

While I'm sure this is true, I wonder how the idea that the sky was a fixed perfect place with no change at all and the powers that be who refused to believe that rocks fell from the sky and how reports of meteors were usually scoffed at by those powers but then they would turn around and proclaim these lights in the sky to be signs from god. It seems a little bit contradictory to me not to mention self serving. A quote from Thomas Jefferson seems in order here "I would rather believe that a Yankee professor would lie than to believe that rocks could fall from the sky" or something like that:hihi:


Wasn't it Caesar (Julius) who recorded that the Celts were more afraid of the skies falling in than they were of the Roman legions?

I see what you mean but would the meteors always be in the west to be followed?


The Tunguska article (New Scientist) described the trajectory as being from the North West although their diagram shows it coming in from the South East (i.e. like wind direction, where it comes from not goes to).

They come from different directions but seem to fall along the same line for the same religions (Buddhists just love those big rocks for their carving). I saw a cable show about widespread meteorite falls in south America and how they were mined by the people of the time. That would have to be much earlier than 10K years, possibly allowing a 5K year cycle. The Mayans have some interesting ideas about timings and 2012, but that's another thread.

That was over the Indian ocean not the Mediterranean but if had been just a few minutes later it would have been over the battle ground of the first gulf war and might have resulted in a nuclear strike by the US.


That would have been lucky for the Mesopotamians.

I think (Dean) Jonathon Swift wrote about a similar thing in 'Gullivers Travels', or was that in SF (about their enemy dropping huge rocks on them from the sky, and both sides working out how to retaliate)? If you saw the latest US version of the book (mini series with Ted Danson, close to the original) you'll note that they used the Irish Rock of Cashel (+ its medieval church/fortress) as the flying rock that housed the scientists. If, like me, you've seen the 'Monkey Magic' series you probably find something similar to the visitations of the flying god heads.

There are also other objects that our ancient ancestors left for us that may point to observations of celestial events. They are series of stone ring forts (Cashels) that lie in straight lines. There are two sets of these on the west coast of Ireland. One set of four is in line with a place called Silvermines in Tipperary where the last open cut deposit was removed in the 1950's from halfway up a mountain (Mother mountain or MaherSleive). Follow the line on a map (Mercator) and it appears to go straight through most of what we regard as the cities that founded Western Civilisation as we know it. The other set seems to coincide with the Mt Saint Patrick/Gotland/Tunguska path.

There's still a lot of sifting the wheat from the chaff to do, hopefully somebody without a vested religious interest will do a serious investigation on the matter.

#19 alexander

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 08:54 AM

Tunguska might be the biggest ignited fart in our worlds history

Regular farts for our race are about what you measure as 600 degrees C. Mega farts average at 1200, ultra farts at 1600, giga farts are totally different, they average out at a power of the product of the three and vary greatly :weather_snowing: (theory still stands)

oh i have a couple of comments (for real) on a couple of things discussed above:

I think it created a lake in solid rock

We all know that no extraterrestrial object would create a lake in rock, perhaps a deep depression, but the sheer heat of the object, be it even a comet, would evaporate any traces of water before the steam hits the ground an extreme rate of speed. So to be really technical, it would have created a depression that was later filled with water :)

Timing, no, objects falling on the ground are not driven by some sort of a special period, there are probably hundreds of objects that come in close to the earth, in a prologued orbit that take hundreds if not thousands of years, but unless they have the same orbit, no objects would periodically fall to the ground, timing thus should be purely consequential.

As far as i know, and there have been a few expeditions to tunguska region, no meteorological debris has ever been found, problem being that this is such a remote region of the planet, staying there for more then a month, or a couple of months, is almost equatable to suicide, if you are not eaten alive by the swarms of mosquitoes, you will get frozen by the harsh winter, and winter is not ideal time to do geological work anyhow...

You know, more and more i wonder if it was a comet that never made contact with the ground, just a load of superheated steam hitting the ground like a supermassive down draft, perhaps at an angle, in an explosive-fashion... Accounts do recall seeing a bright glow in the skies, and then lots and lots of dust covering the sky.... hmmm... i like to ponder about these things

#20 Moontanman

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 09:03 AM

Timing, no, objects falling on the ground are not driven by some sort of a special period, there are probably hundreds of objects that come in close to the earth, in a prologued orbit that take hundreds if not thousands of years, but unless they have the same orbit, no objects would periodically fall to the ground, timing thus should be purely consequential.


The links I provided showed the periodical link with a yearly meteor shower. Lots of small impacts have been shown to be a part of periodical meteor shower. In every meteor shower there small and large meteors, some are more uniform than others but I think the idea of periodical displays and falls of rocks is a given. The only thing unknown is when does the earth pass through the most dense part of the meteor shower.

#21 alexander

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 12:21 PM

meteor showers are different, a bit, well the planet's rotation is the defining factor there, just-so-happens that we rotate at a very similar speed, and on a given day, throughout last milleniah, we have been in the same general area of proximity with the sun and the meteorite belt in proximity to the sun. The shower may very well be a cloud of debris that we hit with each rotation, pulling some into the atmosphere, making it a meteorite shower on a periodical basis. as i said, as far as large objects hitting the planet, this is highly unlikely to be periodical...

#22 Moontanman

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 12:29 PM

meteor showers are different, a bit, well the planet's rotation is the defining factor there, just-so-happens that we rotate at a very similar speed, and on a given day, throughout last milleniah, we have been in the same general area of proximity with the sun and the meteorite belt in proximity to the sun. The shower may very well be a cloud of debris that we hit with each rotation, pulling some into the atmosphere, making it a meteorite shower on a periodical basis. as i said, as far as large objects hitting the planet, this is highly unlikely to be periodical...


Not true dude, most meteors are associated with trails left by comets slowly breaking up as they orbit the Sun. That's why we get predictable meteor showers. Has nothing to do with the rotation of the earth and everything to do with it's orbit. While most of the cometary debris are tiny pebbles some are large chunks, small rocks, and even large chunks of ice. That's why the the Tunguska blast is associated with a meteor shower. The blast happened at the peak of a well known meteor shower. Having said that it is true that all large meteors are not necessarily associated with meteor showers but they can be and often are.

#23 alexander

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 01:50 PM

I therefore must be thinking about earlier universe....

Agreed that it's not likely to be due to the asteroid-space debris field, but you can not say that the rotation of the planet has nothing to do with timing, because it has as much to do with it as the orbit and period of the earth as the orbit and period of the comet.

Having said that it is true that all large meteors are not necessarily associated with meteor showers but they can be and often are.

I think that you have it the wrong way around, and do correct me, as i am not well versed in astronomy.

From what i gather, about 86% of the debris that hits earth atmosphere are chondrite meteorites.

Chondrites are typically about 4.55 billion years old and are thought to represent material from the asteroid belt that never formed into large bodies.


Though i guess they could be toed behind a comet if the comet passed through the belt....

And i think its the other way around due to the formation of the chrondrule particles.

These particles, or chondrules, are composed mostly of silicate minerals that appear to have been melted while they were free-floating objects in space.


Tunguska blast may be associated with a meteor shower, that still does not mean that it could not be a comet....

#24 alexander

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 01:51 PM

or for that matter that another one would hit us 100 years after that...

#25 modest

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 04:21 PM

The blast happened at the peak of a well known meteor shower.


Does the link name the comet?

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#26 Moontanman

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 06:35 PM

I therefore must be thinking about earlier universe....

Agreed that it's not likely to be due to the asteroid-space debris field, but you can not say that the rotation of the planet has nothing to do with timing, because it has as much to do with it as the orbit and period of the earth as the orbit and period of the comet.


The rotation of the Earth would have no effect on meteor showers, why would you think it would? The orbit of the Earth and the comet and or debris field would have everything to do with a meteor shower. I am not talking about the local time the shower occurs but the days or weeks of the year the shower occurs. Most if not all showers last at least several days with the peak occurring on a specific day. The reason the time is often given as a certain hour has more to do with when the peak will occur over a certain area of the earth suitable for viewing. Meteors hit during the day as well as night but are more visible in the early morning due to the direction of the earths orbital motion not because of the earths rotation.

I think that you have it the wrong way around, and do correct me, as i am not well versed in astronomy.

From what i gather, about 86% of the debris that hits earth atmosphere are chondrite meteorites.

Though i guess they could be toed behind a comet if the comet passed through the belt....

And i think its the other way around due to the formation of the chrondrule particles.

Tunguska blast may be associated with a meteor shower, that still does not mean that it could not be a comet....


Meteors hit the earth 24/7/365 the average may well be chondrites but the predictable showers are often associated with known cometary orbits. Showers not associated with known comets are often assumed to be part of old comets that have disintegrated, the Tunguska event was at the peak of the

Beta Taurids - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Associated with the
Comet Encke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

#27 alexander

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 07:02 PM

The orbit of the Earth and the comet and or debris field would have everything to do with a meteor shower.

perhaps i didnt word it correctl, but that's exactly what i've been saying, or at least trying....

hmm, i thought they have ran simulations and got a similar kind of tree-uprooting patterns as was observed and documented by the earliest expeditions there...?

#28 Moontanman

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 07:17 PM

I therefore must be thinking about earlier universe....

Agreed that it's not likely to be due to the asteroid-space debris field, but you can not say that the rotation of the planet has nothing to do with timing, because it has as much to do with it as the orbit and period of the earth as the orbit and period of the comet.


I think that you have it the wrong way around, and do correct me, as i am not well versed in astronomy.

From what i gather, about 86% of the debris that hits earth atmosphere are chondrite meteorites.

Though i guess they could be toed behind a comet if the comet passed through the belt....

And i think its the other way around due to the formation of the chrondrule particles.

Tunguska blast may be associated with a meteor shower, that still does not mean that it could not be a comet....


perhaps i didnt word it correctl, but that's exactly what i've been saying, or at least trying....

hmm, i thought they have ran simulations and got a similar kind of tree-uprooting patterns as was observed and documented by the earliest expeditions there...?


Yup they did, aerial burst like a multimegaton air burst, obviously we had our communication wires crossed:doh:

#29 modest

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 08:15 PM

Yup they did, aerial burst like a multimegaton air burst, obviously we had our communication wires crossed:doh:


The first person to notice the similarity between the upright trees striped of their branches at Tunguska and Hiroshima was a soviet Alexander Kazantsev. He featured it in a science fiction story. He assumed meteors only exploded when hitting the ground and came to the conclusion it must have been an alien craft whose nuclear reactor exploded off the ground.

Democratic Central:: June 30, 1908 -- Tunguska explosion occurs

~modest