Where does reality reside ?

[modest]

Prove this without making any observations and I will yield the point.

 

I doubt you will.

 

The thousands of miles of unobserved iron beneath my feet exists. I prove it by not falling to my death. To recap, the iron:

1. is unobserved
   
2. exists
   

-modest

[freeztar]

My two post to this thread, were suppose to be in the what is life thread. I have no idea how they got in this thread. It really misses up everything for the post to come up in the wrong thread.

 

 

Sorry NJ, since the original thread veered off topic, some of the posts from that thread were moved here. Feel free to repost in the original thread if you wish. :lol:

[Thunderbird]

Originally Posted by Thunderbird

"Room" is not a system without the observer to say it is a room, "Room" is a concept of observation.

 

You fail to acknowledge the possibility that it can be both :lol:

For good reason, its only "both" in the context of "Both".

Please do something - anything - to try and demonstrate your claim here. It is frustrating when you just keep repeating it without any examples or logical arguments or anything to support your position.

 

Why is a room only a concept of observation?

 

-modest

 

Because it can only be found, measured, defind, named, conceptualized though observation.

 

Observation is only a measure of what is outside of us. The observer stands at the center giving a coordinate. It is impossible to take a measurement without a point of reference. If there is no point of reference... there is nothing to measure.

[modest]

Because it can only be found, measured, defend, named, conceptualized though observation.

 

If one system measures the other system then there are 2 systems :)

 

Observation is only a measure of what is outside of us. The observer stands at the center giving a coordinate. It is impossible to take a measurement without a point of reference. If there is no point of reference... there is nothing to measure.

 

All true. But your claim isn’t that “there is nothing to measure” or 'nothing being measured' or 'nothing being observed' - your claim is that there is NOTHING. No reality. No existence.

 

Impossible to measure [imath]\neq[/imath] nothing

No point of reference [imath]\neq[/imath] no point

Nothing observed [imath]\neq[/imath] nothing

 

Unless you show otherwise.

 

-modest

[Tormod]

It is impossible to take a measurement without a point of reference. If there is no point of reference... there is nothing to measure.

 

I completely fail to see how this has anything with "where does reality reside".

 

Whether something exists or not is obviously a matter of defintion (which I believe has already been mentioned...the thread is a bit messy).

 

"Where does reality reside" is a kind of anthropic question, it demands a location relative to something, and the only logical answer is "in our minds".

 

Thunderbird argues that nothing unobserved exists. My question would be, how can you know that something is not observed? For example, is our universe not observed?

 

How can anything come into existence if it requires an act of observation? Who created the "prime observer"? And how did this creator make his creation without observing it?

[REASON]

Observation is only a measure of what is outside of us. The observer stands at the center giving a coordinate. It is impossible to take a measurement without a point of reference. If there is no point of reference... there is nothing to measure.

 

Good grief T-Bird, your entire argument here is to confuse that which is real despite our perception with that which is real for us as a result of our perception. They are not the same concept.

 

Through our observations of evidence, we are able to determine that things exist in reality despite our awarness. We are participants in reality.

 

While your parents may have come into existance in your mind when you first laid eyes on them, you obviously understand that they existed before you were born or else you wouldn't be here to observe them.

 

If you really believe what you are saying, than why do you argue with such passion about the morphology of ancient life forms that could not have existed with no one around to observe them? You are therefore arguing about nothing.

 

I understand the point you are trying to make. Unfortunately, your point is not about reality, it is about perception. The two are not necessarily congruent.

[Thunderbird]

I doubt you will.

 

The thousands of miles of unobserved iron beneath my feet exists. I prove it by not falling to my death. To recap, the iron:

1. is unobserved
   
2. exists
   

-modest

If you say so..........

[Tormod]

If you say so..........

 

Wow you are really sinking to a low level here. You are close to violating our rules with this nonsense.

 

Do you want to discuss or just be sarcastic and be "right"? :lol:

[Thunderbird]

If one system measures the other system then there are 2 systems :lol:

If you say so true again.

 

 

 

All true. But your claim isn’t that “there is nothing to measure” or 'nothing being measured' or 'nothing being observed' - your claim is that there is NOTHING. No reality. No existence.....

.....without a point of reference... yes, you got it.

[Thunderbird]

Wow you are really sinking to a low level here. You are close to violating our rules with this nonsense.

 

Do you want to discuss or just be sarcastic and be "right"? :lol:

 

Originally Posted by Thunderbird

If you say so..........

This is not sarcasm.... it is to point to a fact that nothing exsist without an observation that something exsist. We are still observing when we measure with any device, it is still saying something exsist. I thought this was obvious. You cannot say something exsist, and then state it is independent of observation.

[Tormod]

This is not sarcasm.... it is to point to a fact that nothing exsist without an observation that something exsist. We are still observing when we measure with any device, it is still saying something exsist. I thought this was obvious.

 

You're really full of it today.

 

Do you know the difference between cause and effect?

 

It is probably obvious to a genius like yourself, but since you dodge all our questions by pointing out how blindingly obvious it is that *your* observations are *the only correct interpretations* (read our rules on those points before a moderator remembers it) - it would be interesting to hear your take on what cause and effect is.

[Thunderbird]

I doubt you will.

 

The thousands of miles of unobserved iron beneath my feet exists. I prove it by not falling to my death. To recap, the iron:

1. is unobserved
   
2. exists
   

-modest

 

This post is a contradiction, Is it, or is it not. Who is saying that iron exsist?

 

Is it no one, or someone.

[Thunderbird]

You're really full of it today.

 

Do you know the difference between cause and effect?

 

It is probably obvious to a genius like yourself, but since you dodge all our questions by pointing out how blindingly obvious it is that *your* observations are *the only correct interpretations* (read our rules on those points before a moderator remembers it) - it would be interesting to hear your take on what cause and effect is.

My post were not intended to be sarcastic, this should be apparent by now, and I I'm far below an IQ of 165

 

What I do have however is a good sense honesty, and integrity. It does not bother me a whip to be found incorrect, I do appreciate being corrected it means I have just unloaded the baggage of misinformation. What I do not appreciate is being accused of say or doing something that I did not do or say. Honesty This is my strength, Not a high I.Q.

[modest]

I doubt you will.

 

The thousands of miles of unobserved iron beneath my feet exists. I prove it by not falling to my death. To recap, the iron:

1. is unobserved
   
2. exists
   

-modest

 

This post is a contradiction, Is it, or is it not. Who is saying that iron exsist?

 

Is it no one, or someone.

Yes Thunderbird.

We can all agree on some points of fact:

1. The iron in earth's core exists
   
2. If it did not we would fall to our deaths
   
3. It is unobserved
   

And by logical deduction we find:

• Something unobserved exists
  

As I've said in post 20 and 28 and countless others now, the problem is equating something we all agree on:

Without observation there is nothing observed.

with something that doesn't follow:

Without observation there is nothing.

The latter doesn't logically follow the former because of a simple bit of logic:

Nothing observed [imath]\neq[/imath] nothing

 

Unless you demonstrate some way to equate the two this is pointless.

 

And quoting a previous thought:

 

If existence is the end product of observation then life must necessarily come before all other materialistic existence. A common loophole to this is that God is the ultimate observer. He observes the tree falling in the forest which is why the tree exists when there aren't any people around. This was Berkeley's position but there is absolutely no evidence for it. I would propose that God the creator is the only logical outcome of the philosophy. If nothing exists without consciousness then consciousness must come before all other things. What you have here is a religion Thunderbird.

 

After all, your whole point in this is that it can't be proven false. What is that if not a theology?

 

-modest

[Thunderbird]

Yes Thunderbird.

We can all agree on some points of fact:

1. The iron in earth's core exists
   
2. If it did not we would fall to our deaths
   
3. It is unobserved
   

And by logical deduction we find:

• Something unobserved exists
  

As I've said in post 20 and 28 and countless others now, the problem is equating something we all agree on:

Without observation there is nothing observed.

with something that doesn't follow:

Without observation there is nothing.

The latter doesn't logically follow the former because of a simple bit of logic:

Nothing observed [imath]neq[/imath] nothing

 

Unless you demonstrate some way to equate the two this is pointless.

 

And quoting a previous thought:

 

 

 

After all, your whole point in this is that it can't be proven false. What is that if not a theology?

 

-modest

Logic.

 

You seem to want to put this as some kind creator theology context. It is much simpler than that. It is just about these words that we use, reality, existence, cause an effect, These are terms that describe a function of awareness interacting with something. If it were just something interacting without our existence it has no effect or cause or exsistance, but since we are in the world, and given the fact that all things are connected all things exsist even if they are out of our sight. The earth even though we do not see the iron core we still experience a cause and effect.

[Thunderbird]

For those who think this conversation is “a pointless waste of time” or this is somehow related to a creator god view.

 

 

I will just say that in my view we are ultimately responsible for our own world, you cannot pass it on to cause and effect, or that the center of creation resides some where else in an institution, or with a parent. We are all residing at the center source of our own creation and are responsible for all of it.

 

This is what I get out of it anyway.

[REASON]

If it were just something interacting without our existence it has no effect or cause or exsistance...

 

This is precisely where you are wrong. What you are referring to is "meaning." Just because no one with an evolved intellect is around to provide meaning to the world does not mean it does not exist in reality. Cause and effect in the natural world does not require perception. Perception has evolved to provide a greater understanding of pre-existing natural processes.

 

As Carl Sagan once said (and I will have to paraphrase), we humans are made of the stuff of stars, and as such, we are a means by which the universe has become aware of itself.

 

This does not imply that the universe came into existance along with our consciousness, but that our consciousness has come about over time from a pre-existing universe.