Can you understand a system with out looking at it from an outside view?

[DI5STURBED]

The more precise question I was trying to ask is, "Can you figure out a system, such as the universe, if you are a part of it; or do you have to be disconnected from it like "God" to be able to truly understand its workings?" Another way of looking at is if you were an enzyme in your digestive track and let’s just say you could "think" would you be able to figure out you were an enzyme in a digestive track, that was connected to the vascular system and so on and so forth, until you eventually found out you were part of a whole body. Then come to find out the body is part of yet another system the universe. I think this can go either way I just want to hear some of your responses and to see where the discussion takes us. This is definatly a head slapper. :)

[Thunderbird]

The more precise question I was trying to ask is, "Can you figure out a system, such as the universe, if you are a part of it; or do you have to be disconnected from it like "God" to be able to truly understand its workings?" Another way of looking at is if you were an enzyme in your digestive track and let’s just say you could "think" would you be able to figure out you were an enzyme in a digestive track, that was connected to the vascular system and so on and so forth, until you eventually found out you were part of a whole body. Then come to find out the body is part of yet another system the universe. I think this can go either way I just want to hear some of your responses and to see where the discussion takes us. This is definatly a head slapper. :shrug:

 

Man is unique from all other life in that he has the capacity and desire to study these systems . We deliberately and systematically increase our awareness of systems that we are not, seemingly anyway ; directly and immediately involved in.

 

The question of objective observation is one about predisposition, or more precisely memory. When we observe within a system the systems primary framework as a reference point is always located within oneself. What is outside of self ? Infinity.

[Nitack]

Man is unique from all other life in that he has the capacity and desire to study these systems .

 

I would challenge this statement. Man is certainly not unique in their capacity and desire to understand these systems. We have seen many other forms of life on this planet observe a system and learn how to manipulate it to get what they want.

 

Example: An ape observes a termite mound. The ape sees those juicy and scrumptious termites going into the hole. So they cease to exist right? But wait, termites reappear from that hole. Therefore, they must not cease to exist, but continue to exist inside the hole. If that ape wants to eat those juicy termites then it will need to get them out of the hole in an efficient manner. So the ape uses a tool to do it. The ape gets a piece of grass, licks it, dips it in the hole, termites stick to it, the ape run the grass through his mouth to get all those juicy termites into its mouth.

 

Where we are figuring out the system of the universe, the apes are still working on the systems that comprise the natural world around them. They will eventually catch up to where we are now given a year or a hundred thousand.

 

Man is not alone.

[Thunderbird]

I would challenge this statement. Man is certainly not unique in their capacity and desire to understand these systems. We have seen many other forms of life on this planet observe a system and learn how to manipulate it to get what they want.

 

Example: An ape observes a termite mound. The ape sees those juicy and scrumptious termites going into the hole. So they cease to exist right? But wait, termites reappear from that hole. Therefore, they must not cease to exist, but continue to exist inside the hole. If that ape wants to eat those juicy termites then it will need to get them out of the hole in an efficient manner. So the ape uses a tool to do it. The ape gets a piece of grass, licks it, dips it in the hole, termites stick to it, the ape run the grass through his mouth to get all those juicy termites into its mouth.

 

Where we are figuring out the system of the universe, the apes are still working on the systems that comprise the natural world around them. They will eventually catch up to where we are now given a year or a hundred thousand.

 

Man is not alone.

 

I was wounding if someone would challenge that. Your correct that other creatures observe and learn out of pure curiosity. apes, dolphins.

[Nitack]

I was wounding if someone would challenge that. Your correct that other creatures observe and learn out of pure curiosity. apes, dolphins.

 

So why did you make the statement if you knew that it would likely be challenged and already had the understanding that it was false? :hyper:

[Thunderbird]

So why did you make the statement if you knew that it would likely be challenged and already had the understanding that it was false? :hyper:

 

Curiosity

[Nitack]

Curiosity

 

Curiosity killed the four legged mammal known as Felis catus

[Thunderbird]

Curiosity killed the four legged mammal known as Felis catus

 

In hominid evolution the lack of curiosity probably led to the extinction of the Neanderthal.

[DI5STURBED]

Wow that is really off topic and has pretty much nothing to do with the question put forth.

[Thunderbird]

Wow that is really off topic and has pretty much nothing to do with the question put forth.

OKely dodely.... firstly what from the post given is off topic and explain you're intetion in the this statment.

Then come to find out the body is part of yet another system the universe. I think this can go either way I just want to hear some of your responses and to see where the discussion takes us.

[Rade]

It seems to me a logical truth that there are only two ways to "know" any "thing", (1) from inside the thing and (2) from outside the thing. Someone please do correct me if I error.

 

So, to answer the OP, you can "understand" or "know" a "thing" other than using an "out-side view" if that thing is you, that is, you can understand from an "in-side view", you can Know Thyself.

[Thunderbird]

It seems to me a logical truth that there are only two ways to "know" any "thing", (1) from inside the thing and (2) from outside the thing. Someone please do correct me if I error.

 

So, to answer the OP, you can "understand" or "know" a "thing" other than using an "out-side view" if that thing is you, that is, you can understand from an "in-side view", you can Know Thyself.

In my view the "outside" of us is an infinity of space time. A quantum flux of pure probabilities. We cannot see this outside infinity because we are but one point, that can only see what is reflected internally from this coordinated point. We can however though our memory refer back to our past self to gain perspective of our present self. We can also speak to, or read about others and the experiences they have had.

[Turtle]

The more precise question I was trying to ask is, "Can you figure out a system, such as the universe, if you are a part of it; or do you have to be disconnected from it like "God" to be able to truly understand its workings?" Another way of looking at is if you were an enzyme in your digestive track and let’s just say you could "think" would you be able to figure out you were an enzyme in a digestive track, that was connected to the vascular system and so on and so forth, until you eventually found out you were part of a whole body. Then come to find out the body is part of yet another system the universe. I think this can go either way I just want to hear some of your responses and to see where the discussion takes us. This is definitely a head slapper. :doh:

 

This week I am again promoting the musings of Fuller in Synergetics for methodically analyzing systems and we peeps places in them. More head-slapping on the geometry of thinking in there than you can shake a stick at. :xparty: :unsure: Fuller says yes; conditionally you can figure out a system you're in. >> http://hypography.com/forums/watercooler/3398-buckminster-fuller-12.html