Baldershymn

- In an emergent society we realize that we are one. We realize that we have more power combined than we have one by one. Actually, it is not an option anymore, we have to, since we are depleting the planets resources and destroying the symbiotic ecosystem. The body is greater than it´s organs. And should an organ fail, the body fails, and all other organs in the body fail. You and I are one. That means that your wellbeing is of most importance to my own wellbeing. Power becomes shifted from "me" to "us all", because the whole is greater than the individual. It is imperative that we learn to cooperate instead of chipping of eachothers money supply. There can be no powerful elite in an emergent society, they can only be elites if they "have" something others dont. By the way, what do you think happens to the "powerful" people when FIAT money reaches it´s intrinsic value of 0, and when nanotechnology or some other "alcymist" technology turns stone into gold? You really think they have power anymore then? They only have power because they have plenty of what is scarce on this planet. It´s no true power. One on one I would kick their *** any day, so would you :cheer: I don´t know Ayn Randian, and I´m not sure I understand what you´ve written here... Please excuse me if I interpret it wrong: My above statement clearly advocates that all and everyone is included. Maybe some think that they and their likes deserve this world, and you and I not, but I am not of that understanding. My heart cannot fathom elitism as I see us all as important working parts of the whole. Right man for the right job, yes, but no-one is better than someone else. The idea about Nirvana or Utopia is that they are final destinations of some dreamed up heaven. The Venus Project is not. It is based on today´s technology, known and tested scientific knowledge, resources and trends. AND it is well aware and designed with the thought that future children will invent new things to make this "Utopian" dream obsolete. I can back up everything I´ve said with evidence or reference. Human DNA is nothing but latent traits or abilities that are triggered by enviroment. Twins that grew up in different enviroments would be very different in behavior than alike. It is our enviroment that really shapes us. If children grew up in a money less society with peaceful surroundings, the desires would change dramatically. Greed and Jealousy for instance would be the first to go. Give it one generation, and you would see a tremendous change. Instincts would transcend into finer desires like that of higher education, higher values, higher sex, higher art, and finally pursuit of happiness and divinity. It will not be perfect, no, but it will be the best we can envision right now. And no, the transition can be painless, but most likely very painful, but it must be done. If you knew all the negative aspects of the profit-motive, you would agree. Lets look at a few: -You cannot profit from abundance, only on scarcity. Keeping things scarce is like throwing half of your food-production to keep prices high, although people starve. -Planned obsolessence - If a car was made with the best materials and the best technology available with easy replaced parts, built to last a hundred years, what would happen to profits made by car-repair companies, car-parts manufacturers, and not least the sale of new cars. Just imagine... YouTube - Money, the Profit Motive and Sustainability http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5P3rJ55UB8 Sorry, I don´t know what Pentecostal revival meetings are, and since you put this sentence out negatively, I don´t think I will spend energy Googleing it. Not true - There are resources enough to give us all a life better than Bill Gates ever had (yeah, him included, he would be astounded). Money inhibits the abundance of resources because the profit-motive must keep resources scarce to make money from them. Not true - FIAT Money has an intrinsic value of 0. It would be more useful to use pebbles as they have more value. Barter was a more just way of trade than money is. I agree! Peace comes when there is no profit-motive! Why do you think USA is way deep in middle-east? Resources? You might be right. Yes they are. If you dont believe it, you have no options to work from. If you do believe it, you have options. If you believe it is simple, you will find a simple solution. At the time Orville brothers flew the first plane, books were written on how man will never fly. I guess the Orville brothers never read that book. Don´t be one of those writers... ;) You need to address the root-cause of human misery before you can evolve. Human nature have changed radically within a single generation, and with evolution gearing up and accelerating exponentially, who can tell what is around the next corner. Luckily we will see evolution happen by itself as corruption like a cancer cell will eat up the body of capitalism. And judging by this latest debt-bubble that cannot be kept artificially going by neither more debt or by monetizing it, there´s no escaping evolution. If you wish to stay stagnant, be prepared to be run over by evolution. ------------------------------ Ignorant statement. There are always the choice of peaceful, just transactions. If you take away money and property, making everything available for everyone, there will be peace, because you will have access to everything you need. Why would you deal with someone in a destructive way then?

John Lennon here... Imagine! It´s easy if you try. :rolleyes: Yeah, we seem to be drifting off-topic... Would it benefit society? Well hehe... that´s a really easy one. Yes of course. 95% of all crimes are related to money-gain, or gain of wealth. If you had access to house, clothes, good healthy food, transportation for free, and access to the best equipment needed to pursue your art, science, music or what it may be, you wouldn´t even think of stealing. If you stole something, you certainly couldn´t sell it. And getting a new one would be easy as dialing the factory. If you wanted to golf, the equipment would be handed to you at the golf course, and you would leave it there for somebody else to play. Most likely you would not "own" a car. You would press a button or dial something, and a driverless car would come to you. Dinner in Tokyo? No problem. A mag-lev train running at 3-4000 MPH would totally eliminate air-travel and get you from one side of the earth to the next in two hours. In todays society you never know if someone is corrupt. You never know when your doctor tells you that your kidney needs to come out, if he is telling the truth or if he needs the money for a downpayment for his yacht. Corruption is everywhere in a money-based society. In a moneyless society trust in your fellow man will return, since you don´t need to worry about money crimes. When our basic needs for survival are met, we no longer worry about money, rent or food, and our happiness increases, our energy increases and I believe our creativity increases. When we no longer need to stock shelves at Wal-Mart for a lousy pay, we suddenly are free to engage in higher education, arts and meaning of life. One could argue that one becomes lazy in such a system without the money incentive, but most of the known scientists(Einstein, Tesla..) or artists did what they did with no profit motive in mind. Human behavior is dependent on its enviroment and not its genes actually. If you grew up in China you would behave like a chinese and speak like one too. So if the enviroment changes, we change. It would probably take a couple of generations to get used to this new society. The new generations would be so vastly different from us. They would be enrergetic, caring, loving, creative... Science would just literally go through the roof... I´d say it would benefit us. :phones: These are the thoughts and ideas of a very old man who dedicated his life to this research, Jacque Fresco. You may have heard of him. He is currently traveling around the world to hold lectures about it at an age of 93. In 1974 he was interviewed by Larry King. What is really amazing is that his ideas then still is futuristic today. YouTube - Larry King Interview 1974 (Full Version) Part 1/5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCH0BQ2nSMo&feature=related His life´s work is called "The Venus Project" and since the release of the movie Zeitgeist Addendum soon two years ago, he has really gotten momentum to his work. I find this very amazing. The Zeitgeist Movement is the activist arm of The Venus Project which aims to make it happen.

Money will cease to exist due to a few ongoing trends which are inevitable. One is the technological unemployment. That is human labour being replaced by more efficient machines doing the monotonous work of humans. Fifty years ago over 60% of the workforce was in agriculture, today it is less than 7%, but the production of foods are doubled. Money was created to be a legal tender for human labour. Money is labour. Today we get paid by hourly work, money which we use to buy goods and consume. But when we are laid off due to technological replacement, we dont get paid, goods wont be purchased and hence the whole system will collapse. The solution is not to stop this technological progress, but rather embrace it and automate food production and other productive industries. This way technological unemployment could be the emancipation of humankind. We would get goods with the highest quality material, not kept cheap and made with planned obsolessence so you can go buy another one. We would have a system that would keep track of planetary resources, not depleting it, but change and find new materials to replace depleting ones. Human wellbeing always comes second to profit. In a moneyless society human wellbeing will come first. Quality living, quality food, quality travel, everything will be made of the finest we know of today. There will be no property. But you will have access to everything you need to live. You can "borrow" a house until you want to move or until you die, then it becomes available for another human. If you want to move to Bahamas, a house will be ready for you to move in. No countries, as we realize we are symbiotic with the ecosystem and the planet as a whole. As for your fish, I imagine you could go fishing as much as you like. There may be automated fish-harvest although how, I dont know yet. But in the future I also imagine we realize that we put a lot lesser imprint on enviroment if we dont eat meat. It takes many times more amount of wheat to produce meat. It is not sustainable in the long run. Food production will happen in large greenhouses fully automated with hydroponics systems. This is possible, and is happening today. Plans and blueprints are being made today to construct such a greenhouse, fully automated and monitored by computers. These greenhouses will produce the first food to be given away for free. The shift to moneyless society is already happening. One thing also that will mark the paradigm-shift, is the announcement of a free-energy device. There are many machines made which claim to produce more energy than they use. The law of thermodynamics have been broken so many times now, that it is just a matter of time now before something comes to the marked. Problem with this is of course, that the economy will implode should such a machine be available to the public. We await. The triggers for an economic meltdown are many. One thing is for certain, one cannot deflate a debt-based bubble with either more debt, or by moneytizing it. So wether you believe in a moneyless society or not, it doesn´t matter, it will happen some time sooner than later.