# Hydrogen Reform (Helium Synthesis).

28 replies to this topic

### #18 exchemist

exchemist

Creating

• Members
• 2902 posts

Posted 28 February 2017 - 07:27 AM

​Yes it can come to mind, Hydrogen is pretty easy & plenty in Space.

​But welcome to planet Earth my friend ! Hydrogen flees from our atmosphere...

​I remember seeing a Hydrogen Car made by Toyota. Cost was 1 MILLION dollars...(laughters)

​I admit that one was a strange model that stored "liquid hydrogen" (-270 C) on board (no comment).

​The ones that weren't big freezers on wheels had instead a fuel cell made of a precious metal (Platinum),

​and costed around 100 000 dollars which is just a little bit less stupid but not yet on target so to speak.

​The best compromise I've heard yet, was a harmonious blend of all preceding propositions.

​You make electric cars with simple batteries and no giant freezers or precious metals to cut costs.

Afterward you extend a network of "hydrogen stations" assuming refrigeration & Platinum fuel cells,

so that the costs are slowly assumed by the consumers on the long run everytime they refuel vehicles.

​In a Platinum fuel cell, you're right, it's hydrogen that we want, but carbon bonds reduce the intensity

​of the refrigeration needed which reduces greatly the costs of long term storage at the Pump...

​'cause you can't force anybody to buy your electrons versus someone else's...it's just scientific politeness ! lol

You can have one in Los Angeles for just under $60k. Edited by exchemist, 28 February 2017 - 07:27 AM. ### #19 HempGraphene HempGraphene Advanced Member • Members • 30 posts Posted 28 February 2017 - 12:43 PM ​60k$ for a standard car with very common attributes...hard sell !

​At that price you get a good "entry level" BMW or "low end" Mercedes.

​Plus there is a global alliance of industrials to build charging stations everywhere.

​And do you think millenials would rather worship Hydrogen Fuel philosophy,

​stay broke & unable to go shopping for years to repay a very espensive car loan,

or don't you think youthes enjoy year-round shopping and will do OK with cheap cars instead...?

​The guy's young, first jobs, pregnant wife, hmmm, "need a car man!", if I hate that dirty oil, what's available :

"2017 Ford Focus EV for 29 120$" http://www.ford.com/...er-all-vehicles "2017 VW Golf EV for 28 995$"

http://www.vw.com/models/e-golf/

"2017 Nissan Leaf EV for 30 680$" https://www.nissanus...tric-cars/leaf/ All of these goodies for around 30k$ & conventional charging stations are way easier to find, ANYWHERE !!!

No really guys, science is not here to make life more complicated nor spit over common sense...

### #20 CraigD

CraigD

Creating

• 8034 posts

Posted 28 February 2017 - 07:17 PM

I note your remarks on hydrogen for transport fuel. However I was interested to read a few days ago that Shell (my former employer) has started installing a network of hydrogen fuelling stations. Evidently they think this technology may still be competitive with recharging of electric batteries -or at least has enough of a chance that it is worth putting a toe into the water commercially with it.

Honda has a compressed hydrogen gas -> PEM fuel cell -> electric motor car – the Clarity – on the market since 2008, while, as you linked to, Toyota has its Mirai out there since 2015. Both have small batteries to store regenerative braking energy, so they’re not pure fuel cell-powered electrics.

The problem I see with both is that they are very limited in where they can be refueled, because there are very few hydrogen refueling stations – the only I’ve found in the US, using Honda’s “check eligibility” page, are in select urban areas in California. They have limited range - 502 km (312 mi) for the Mirai, 589 km (366 mi) for the 2017 Clarity – so they’re essentially commuter cars, useless for interstate travel. They’re both expensive – about US$60,000, though Honda at least gives you$15,000 for the first 3 years of fuel, which for many commuters, would zero their fuel cost.

I’ve followed hydrogen powered cars since the 1970s. Present day ones seem masterpieces of engineering, not just the cars, but their fueling stations. First generation ones, I gather, were water + electricity->hydrogen + (waste) oxygen electrolysizers, which gave way to methane + water + heat -> CO + CO2 + hydrogen steam reformers, which ca 1999 were about 50% lower capital and 35% lower generating cost. Since methane reformers are carbon emitters (unless they somehow sequester it), this was a bad trend, but recent electrolysizers are approaching the low cost of reformers. (source: http://www.nrel.gov/...3osti/56412.pdf) I wasn’t able to quickly find data, but I hope this mean that present day stations are increasingly electrolysizers.

60k$for a standard car with very common attributes...hard sell ! At that price you get a good "entry level" BMW or "low end" Mercedes. True, but I think there’s a good market of people with lots of cash+credit who consider a ZEV a better status symbol than a famous luxury brand. Were this not so, Tesla wouldn’t have sold 50,000 of their$95,000-100,000 Model Ss – though being the fastest 0-60 MPH production car in the world isn’t a bad selling point, either!

It’s the lack of fueling stations, I think, that’s confining the hydrogen powered car to a commuter car role.

"2017 Ford Focus EV for 29 120$" http://www.ford.com/...er-all-vehicles "2017 VW Golf EV for 28 995$" http://www.vw.com/models/e-golf/
"2017 Nissan Leaf EV for 30 680$" https://www.nissanus...tric-cars/leaf/ Good list, but I’d add the IMHO terribly underappreciated$33,170 Chevy Volt. It’s the only mass-produced (if you consider 82,000 in 4 year to be worthy the term) “extended range electric” car, where the drive is pure electric, the ICE gasoline motor connected to a generator, not the drivetrain. I remain puzzled that systems like this, which have the zero-emission advantages of pure electrics, with the interstate capability of a pure gasoline cars, aren’t dominating the markets of all the wealthy countries.

Moderation note: If nobody objects, I’ll split these hydrogen fuel and electric car posts into their own thread, since they’re off the original topic of helium generation

### #21 exchemist

exchemist

Creating

• Members
• 2902 posts

Posted 01 March 2017 - 02:12 AM

Honda has a compressed hydrogen gas -> PEM fuel cell -> electric motor car – the Clarity – on the market since 2008, while, as you linked to, Toyota has its Mirai out there since 2015. Both have small batteries to store regenerative braking energy, so they’re not pure fuel cell-powered electrics.

The problem I see with both is that they are very limited in where they can be refueled, because there are very few hydrogen refueling stations – the only I’ve found in the US, using Honda’s “check eligibility” page, are in select urban areas in California. They have limited range - 502 km (312 mi) for the Mirai, 589 km (366 mi) for the 2017 Clarity – so they’re essentially commuter cars, useless for interstate travel. They’re both expensive – about US$60,000, though Honda at least gives you$15,000 for the first 3 years of fuel, which for many commuters, would zero their fuel cost.

I’ve followed hydrogen powered cars since the 1970s. Present day ones seem masterpieces of engineering, not just the cars, but their fueling stations. First generation ones, I gather, were water + electricity->hydrogen + (waste) oxygen electrolysizers, which gave way to methane + water + heat -> CO + CO2 + hydrogen steam reformers, which ca 1999 were about 50% lower capital and 35% lower generating cost. Since methane reformers are carbon emitters (unless they somehow sequester it), this was a bad trend, but recent electrolysizers are approaching the low cost of reformers. (source: http://www.nrel.gov/...3osti/56412.pdf) I wasn’t able to quickly find data, but I hope this mean that present day stations are increasingly electrolysizers.

True, but I think there’s a good market of people with lots of cash+credit who consider a ZEV a better status symbol than a famous luxury brand. Were this not so, Tesla wouldn’t have sold 50,000 of their $95,000-100,000 Model Ss – though being the fastest 0-60 MPH production car in the world isn’t a bad selling point, either! It’s the lack of fueling stations, I think, that’s confining the hydrogen powered car to a commuter car role. Good list, but I’d add the IMHO terribly underappreciated$33,170 Chevy Volt. It’s the only mass-produced (if you consider 82,000 in 4 year to be worthy the term) “extended range electric” car, where the drive is pure electric, the ICE gasoline motor connected to a generator, not the drivetrain. I remain puzzled that systems like this, which have the zero-emission advantages of pure electrics, with the interstate capability of a pure gasoline cars, aren’t dominating the markets of all the wealthy countries.

Moderation note: If nobody objects, I’ll split these hydrogen fuel and electric car posts into their own thread, since they’re off the original topic of helium generation

Yes do that: it is a worthwhile discussion.

On your (and HempGraphene's) comments about cost vs. conventional cars, it is true that ALL ultra-low emission vehicles are currently more costly for what you get than conventional vehicles. But the success of hybrid and electric cars already shows there is a segment of the market that is willing to pay a premium to have a clear conscience and to be a social trend-setter.

If enough of these people buy them, economy of scale effects will bring the price down over time and make them appeal to more people. Also, as and when government tilts the playing field in their direction (via different taxation, inner city permitting, or whatever it may be), they will become more attractive. That, surely,  is how we will eventually move on from legacy transport technology.

I am not saying the hydrogen vehicle is going to be the answer, but just trying to explain why my former employer is not crazy to start supporting a hydrogen fuelling network, as one strand of its move beyond conventional fuel. It's going to be market competition that drives the outcome and it make sense to back market trial of more than one of the competing technologies at this point in the cycle.

Edited by exchemist, 01 March 2017 - 02:23 AM.

### #22 HempGraphene

HempGraphene

• Members
• 30 posts

Posted 01 March 2017 - 03:04 AM

​"it make sense to back market trial of more than one of the competing technologies at this point in the cycle."

​If you're an Investment Expert for Big Portfolios, YES ! But for a Chemist pure hydrogen sounds mistaken...

If you're a Big Oil company investing in the "future" you don't pick up a fuel that needs fuel itself to remain in its usable state (aka refrigeration) !

So now these guys sell fuel that needs fuel to remain fuel...CONFUSING MAN !

We have Liquid Propane Gas (LPG) vehicles cheap & easily available in the entire European continent...

That hydrogen dumass, you take his god-damn atom, you trap it with Carbon & Oxygen, so that it remains stable without refrigeration !!!

And if like me you enjoy the potential that electrolysis has for technological progress you can plan future use of Dimethyl Ether (aka Synthetic Propane).

Honda & Toyota have just created very bad versions of good old LPG cars...RIDICULOUS.

And don't get me wrong guys, Asians aren't stupid, they know it's a fundamental scientific mistake

regards the laws of physics & chemistry in our present world. But it's certainly their Big Investers

that ordained them to complicate the technology, so that if successful, only few could afford the Financial

cost of competing with an over-inflated pyramid of technological complexity...

Money sometimes makes the world go squared, not round, like, in the box of a rich man !

Sorry for some bad words here and there, I won't edit the all thing, let's keep it imperfect, it's more entertaining !

### #23 exchemist

exchemist

Creating

• Members
• 2902 posts

Posted 01 March 2017 - 04:55 AM

​"it make sense to back market trial of more than one of the competing technologies at this point in the cycle."

​If you're an Investment Expert for Big Portfolios, YES ! But for a Chemist pure hydrogen sounds mistaken...

If you're a Big Oil company investing in the "future" you don't pick up a fuel that needs fuel itself to remain in its usable state (aka refrigeration) !

So now these guys sell fuel that needs fuel to remain fuel...CONFUSING MAN !

We have Liquid Propane Gas (LPG) vehicles cheap & easily available in the entire European continent...

That hydrogen dumass, you take his god-damn atom, you trap it with Carbon & Oxygen, so that it remains stable without refrigeration !!!

And if like me you enjoy the potential that electrolysis has for technological progress you can plan future use of Dimethyl Ether (aka Synthetic Propane).

Honda & Toyota have just created very bad versions of good old LPG cars...RIDICULOUS.

And don't get me wrong guys, Asians aren't stupid, they know it's a fundamental scientific mistake

regards the laws of physics & chemistry in our present world. But it's certainly their Big Investers

that ordained them to complicate the technology, so that if successful, only few could afford the Financial

cost of competing with an over-inflated pyramid of technological complexity...

Money sometimes makes the world go squared, not round, like, in the box of a rich man !

Sorry for some bad words here and there, I won't edit the all thing, let's keep it imperfect, it's more entertaining !

LPG (propane) is no good: it emits far too much CO2.

The object of both hydrogen and electricity is to provide energy for transport that can be both generated and consumed with little or no carbon emissions.

Edited by exchemist, 01 March 2017 - 04:55 AM.

### #24 HempGraphene

HempGraphene

• Members
• 30 posts

Posted 01 March 2017 - 06:07 AM

​Oh YES that "CO2" hysteria, I've heard about that more than my share...

​I agree man, let's sequestrate the CO2 and induce an artificial Ice Age,

​there's way too much population in the world, let's freeze everybody.

​If you can't afford your Million Dollar technology just get an igloo sucker...

​Jokes of bad taste put aside, the idea was more like exchemist first said,

​to be able to artificially generate the fuels you need, not the Carbon boogie-man story.

​Carbon bad ? Really ??? I mean...come on man, let's grow plants to eat...

Please don't destroy the only thing that makes biology palatable for beginners lol !

​I just want Civilization to continue with or without petrol for God sake !!!

​Just because Carbon is black, such discrimination leaves me speechless...

### #25 exchemist

exchemist

Creating

• Members
• 2902 posts

Posted 01 March 2017 - 08:03 AM

Oh look, my troll detector has gone off........

### #26 Farming guy

Farming guy

Explaining

• Members
• 966 posts

Posted 01 March 2017 - 09:41 AM

​60k$for a standard car with very common attributes...hard sell ! ​At that price you get a good "entry level" BMW or "low end" Mercedes. ​Plus there is a global alliance of industrials to build charging stations everywhere. ​And do you think millenials would rather worship Hydrogen Fuel philosophy, ​stay broke & unable to go shopping for years to repay a very espensive car loan, or don't you think youthes enjoy year-round shopping and will do OK with cheap cars instead...? ​The guy's young, first jobs, pregnant wife, hmmm, "need a car man!", if I hate that dirty oil, what's available : "2017 Ford Focus EV for 29 120$"

http://www.ford.com/...er-all-vehicles

"2017 VW Golf EV for 28 995$" http://www.vw.com/models/e-golf/ "2017 Nissan Leaf EV for 30 680$"

https://www.nissanus...tric-cars/leaf/

All of these goodies for around 30k \$ & conventional charging stations are way easier to find, ANYWHERE !!!

No really guys, science is not here to make life more complicated nor spit over common sense...

If you want to protect both the environment and your financials, the best answer might be to not own a car.  If you live close to where you work, you can waste less of your time commuting,and when you want to travel farther, you can travel by bus or train, or rent the expensive vehicle that you can't afford to buy.  You can also avoid tearing up what's left of the countryside with homes and roads.

### #27 HempGraphene

HempGraphene

• Members
• 30 posts

Posted 01 March 2017 - 02:05 PM

​No my friend, not only are we going to have electric cars, but we're going to run charging stations on synthetic propane !

​Of course you should just read it as a confident bet. But Ford, Nissan, VW, BMW, Mercedes etc all waiting for us buying their staff.

​Whether we acquire their staff individually or rent it collectively through third party businesses, you're right, it's an open discussion...

​I agree with you 100 % on the frequent use of buses, it's just the very soul of modern cities. Plus it's cheap, perfect example !

​But trains...I don't know man, my opinion is really biased : I just hate trains !!! I mean traveling inside of them not their design.

​They're awesome for the transport of strategic merchandise like grain, fuel, fertilizer etc. I just can't stand being enclosed inside of it...

​The country side, yes, it's shrinking too rapidly, we can't let the bitumen worshippers of the city banks conquer it totally.

​Even if it would also have the advantage of selecting them too out of existence. A victory of natural selection one could celebrate anyway !

### #28 billvon

billvon

Understanding

• Members
• 281 posts

Posted 01 March 2017 - 04:04 PM

​No my friend, not only are we going to have electric cars, but we're going to run charging stations on synthetic propane !

Dumbest idea I've heard in quite a while.

### #29 HempGraphene

HempGraphene

• Members
• 30 posts

Posted 02 March 2017 - 01:02 AM

​Hey billvon, most modern "hydrogen" fuel cells alike these purchased by "Google Inc", "Ebay Inc" or certain universities,

​are actually fueled with natural gas, and they're known to be quite costly to acquire, but they're also known to have a very interesting energy efficiency.

​They're basicly "Hydrogen Fuel Cells" except that they're equipped with added internal components that clean the Water & Carbon deposits & gases out oxygen.

​There are multiple versions of this idea, check one of these dumbest people ever gentlemen :

​If it's "synthetic propane" that you hated just put it aside & replace it with natural gas, standard propane or simple butane.

​Which feedstock do your beliefs authorise you to desire ? Season at your taste people !