Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Destiny of humanity and complex life on the Earth


  • Please log in to reply
17 replies to this topic

#1 Moontanman

Moontanman

    Unobtainium...

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9029 posts

Posted 22 September 2008 - 10:17 PM

My premise is this, there are basically three ultimate destinies for humanity and complex life on the Earth.

1. We stay here and ride out the Earth and become extinct along with everything else when a natural disaster of some sort wipes out life on the Earth.

2. Humans colonize the solar system by Terra forming other planets and eventually go to the stars and do the same thing there. We would travel via very fast (near C)space craft to other stars with suitable planets, we might take some complex life with us.

3. We colonize the solar system through orbiting colonies and bypass planets altogether. Using these huge colony ships similar to O'Neil cylinders we can spread out slowly and occupy the Galaxy in a few hundred thousands years. again we would take much of Earth's complex life with us. Stars with large populations of asteroid like bodies would be preferred. Tau Ceti is an example of this type of star.

If complex life is as rare as some think then we could be thought of as spreading complex life around the galaxy.

#2 questor

questor

    Suspended

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1648 posts

Posted 23 September 2008 - 08:54 AM

''1. We stay here and ride out the Earth and become extinct along with everything else when a natural disaster of some sort wipes out life on the Earth.''

Much more likely:
We overpopulate the earth until the availablity of food, water and natural resources are exhausted. Then Humanity ceases to exist.

#3 freeztar

freeztar

    Pondering

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8445 posts

Posted 23 September 2008 - 09:33 AM

''1. We stay here and ride out the Earth and become extinct along with everything else when a natural disaster of some sort wipes out life on the Earth.''

Much more likely:
We overpopulate the earth until the availablity of food, water and natural resources are exhausted. Then Humanity ceases to exist.


I don't think that is much more likely questor. Overpopulation may cause massive die-offs, but the remaining population would have unshared resources and would rebuild from there. This can be modeled via system dynamics.

I think that a natural disaster (or ourselves) will wipe us out long before we colonize space, unfortunately. :)

I hope I'm wrong though!

#4 Thunderbird

Thunderbird

    Creating

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1814 posts

Posted 23 September 2008 - 10:36 AM

Measure the ratio of energy expended on competition and conflict to the ratio of energy expended on cooperative networks . Once the system reaches a tipping point of cooperation globally civilization will leap into a higher state of being.

Man cannot help but learn the longer we exist, its an inevitability. Which is going to be a very very long time. We will not die out as frezzy said. Populations will fluctuate and rebalance. The meme. .is the thing. I think I spelled that right? Once certain cooperative networks are established civilization will become greater than its individual parts. The system will allow for an individual to self actualize once this begins to take place civilizations collective energy will pass a bifurcation point. what lies beyond this point. Study past systems in evolutionary biology and you can get some hints. I believe Moontanman is right in that we will connect with other civilizations , but we disagree on the mode. I think once this point is passed we will find an informational system hidden from us now that will be utilized as a galactic neural net. We will become a part of a universal mind. We will not have physically travel when we can do what we are doing now at this very moment. Communications is the thing . Information connects, combines and evolves in a recursive feedback pattern.

#5 Moontanman

Moontanman

    Unobtainium...

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9029 posts

Posted 27 September 2008 - 09:47 PM

WOW T-bird, I think I like your universe better than mine. While some of these things would be great if they happen I am trying to base this on things we know are possible within the limits of the technology we know now. Our Earth is a wonderful place but humans have developed during a time span when disruptive geological events of truly global scope have been few and no real threats from space. This charmed life cannot go on forever. Eventually a super volcano will erupt or a large asteroid or comet will hit the Earth. Before those things can happen we have the power to destroy our selves. And there is always the sun waiting in the wings slowly turning up the heat. I can see the possibility of our civilization collapsing and rising back up maybe once but more than twice would seem to stretch the possibilities quite a bit. So far I see no new possibilities for humanity, I like T-Birds vision but I see no reason to think it might happen.

#6 Michaelangelica

Michaelangelica

    Creating

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7797 posts

Posted 28 September 2008 - 01:04 AM

My premise is this, there are basically three ultimate destinies for humanity and complex life on the Earth.

1. We stay here and ride out the Earth and become extinct along with everything else when a natural disaster of some sort wipes out life on the Earth.

2. Humans colonize the solar system by Terra forming other planets and eventually go to the stars and do the same thing there. We would travel via very fast (near C)space craft to other stars with suitable planets, we might take some complex life with us.

3. We colonize the solar system through orbiting colonies and bypass planets altogether. Using these huge colony ships similar to O'Neil cylinders we can spread out slowly and occupy the Galaxy in a few hundred thousands years. again we would take much of Earth's complex life with us. Stars with large populations of asteroid like bodies would be preferred. Tau Ceti is an example of this type of star.

If complex life is as rare as some think then we could be thought of as spreading complex life around the galaxy.

All good theories
but we need to get moving FAST on the technology of finding another planet and solar system
How much time do you think that would take and would the new planet have chocolate?:mickmouse:

#7 Moontanman

Moontanman

    Unobtainium...

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9029 posts

Posted 28 September 2008 - 10:31 AM

All good theories
but we need to get moving FAST on the technology of finding another planet and solar system
How much time do you think that would take and would the new planet have chocolate?:)


Actually we are already on the verge of having the technology to find earth like planets what we need to do is start developing the technology to capitalize on the presence of other Earths. That will be a slow process but we need to start now. We need to get our eggs out of one basket, spread them around, and the only chocolate will be in the places we take the chocolate producing trees!

#8 charles brough

charles brough

    "overviewist"

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 531 posts

Posted 16 October 2008 - 09:25 AM

Well, it is not as though we here have much say in this matter! By being so overpopulated and crowding the Earth and using up what is left of its resources, we create a lot of tension between nations and societies. With some 30,000 nuclear bombs around all aimed and triggered, the big question is how do we get from here to there!

Yes, I agree that the whole future destiny of the human race depends upon continuing to expand its territory into the rest of the universe. Even so, we will still have to get to the point of controlling our numbers

#9 Moontanman

Moontanman

    Unobtainium...

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9029 posts

Posted 16 October 2008 - 10:33 AM

Well, it is not as though we here have much say in this matter! By being so overpopulated and crowding the Earth and using up what is left of its resources, we create a lot of tension between nations and societies. With some 30,000 nuclear bombs around all aimed and triggered, the big question is how do we get from here to there!


We get there from here by using nuclear energy to help us develop space travel. Once we get into space in a big way we can start to exploit the resources of space and develop ways to colonize the solar system and eventually other stars. We need to get past the idea of needing planets and become a truly space living/fairing culture.

Yes, I agree that the whole future destiny of the human race depends upon continuing to expand its territory into the rest of the universe. Even so, we will still have to get to the point of controlling our numbers.


Once we colonize space controlling our numbers becomes a problem for the people who choose to stay on the Earth.

#10 charles brough

charles brough

    "overviewist"

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 531 posts

Posted 17 October 2008 - 08:20 AM

We get there from here by using nuclear energy to help us develop space travel. Once we get into space in a big way we can start to exploit the resources of space and develop ways to colonize the solar system and eventually other stars. We need to get past the idea of needing planets and become a truly space living/fairing culture.

Once we colonize space controlling our numbers becomes a problem for the people who choose to stay on the Earth.


Yes, certainly. I agree, but what we want to happen and what "can" happen are not necessarily what will happen. Really, do you see any evidence that it is going to happen? What I see is that interest in space exploration is dying in the general public. Many people resent the "waste of money." They are increasingly only interested in the pocketbook. When oil prices go up, there is talk of atomic energy, but oil prices go down, and the atomic energy plant idea fades. NASA has big plans, but funding is so small that they have to stretch out the plans decades into the future.

To me, what the human race does in the long term is important, but to most people, they give it no thought. And how can we blame them when our system praised "the pursuit of happiness" as the goal? The human race has no goal of expanding out into space. The space effort is just a scientific enterprise as far as the public is concerned. Why would people want to live in a space colony when they have more room here? If it takes two or more or thousands of years to reach another habitable planet, who would want to pay for a "space travel junket" there? If there is no money in it, no one will go and it won't be turned into a profitable business.

If we really think about our long term future, we have to think space colonizing because, here, we are running out of room. Even if we miraculously found a way to limit to one the number of children each couple could have, it would take decades for the population growth to begin leveling off. We are running out of time. Cutting down our numbers has to begin real soon and cannot wait until we have colonies out in space!

What we need is a whole new secular belief system that replaces "the pursuit of happiness" goal with "the conquest and colonizing of space," as well as population birth control, equality of the races, and world government. We would need an improved moral system as well. Such a belief system would have to be scientific and gradually replace all the old religions.

charles

#11 Moontanman

Moontanman

    Unobtainium...

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9029 posts

Posted 17 October 2008 - 06:28 PM

Any movement starts with the realization of a need. The need to start on the road toward humanity becoming a space fairing civilization is paramount. The movement needs to start 50 years ago, we need to be in overdrive to start the realization of space travel. If we wait to long lack of resources and fear will defeat us. Once we gain a foot hold in space the movement can begin to show it's value by the transfer of resources to the planet and by building more habitats. If it's not done soon society will be drained by the negative influences of war, religion, greed, and apathy.

#12 charles brough

charles brough

    "overviewist"

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 531 posts

Posted 18 October 2008 - 11:45 AM

Any movement starts with the realization of a need. The need to start on the road toward humanity becoming a space fairing civilization is paramount. The movement needs to start 50 years ago, we need to be in overdrive to start the realization of space travel. If we wait to long lack of resources and fear will defeat us. Once we gain a foot hold in space the movement can begin to show it's value by the transfer of resources to the planet and by building more habitats. If it's not done soon society will be drained by the negative influences of war, religion, greed, and apathy.


As you say, the need is already here---even 50 years ago---but it is still not a part of popular acceptance or belief. It will not and has not sprung up by itself. It needs to be apart of whole world-view and way of thinking. The old indifference survives because our secular belief system is so fragile that it cannot offend or contradict the basic religion, Christianity, the foundation of our ancient society. For example, it is because of Christian Genesis belief in multiplying and populating the earth that one does not hear anything about over-population being the cause of our environmental and pollution problems. It is also why we are in danger of having birth control and abortion made illegal.

You mentioned a movement. What we need is a movement that is "the wave of the future," one that is based on a scientific understanding, an ideology that is advanced and sets the colonizing of space as its major goal. I have been working on just that project for a long time. New such belief systems have arisen in the past and changed the world. It will have to happen again. We will then need to think in a different way than today.

#13 Moontanman

Moontanman

    Unobtainium...

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9029 posts

Posted 18 October 2008 - 11:52 AM

As you say, the need is already here---even 50 years ago---but it is still not a part of popular acceptance or belief. It will not and has not sprung up by itself. It needs to be apart of whole world-view and way of thinking. The old indifference survives because our secular belief system is so fragile that it cannot offend or contradict the basic religion, Christianity, the foundation of our ancient society. For example, it is because of Christian Genesis belief in multiplying and populating the earth that one does not hear anything about over-population being the cause of our environmental and pollution problems. It is also why we are in danger of having birth control and abortion made illegal.

You mentioned a movement. What we need is a movement that is "the wave of the future," one that is based on a scientific understanding, an ideology that is advanced and sets the colonizing of space as its major goal. I have been working on just that project for a long time. New such belief systems have arisen in the past and changed the world. It will have to happen again. We will then need to think in a different way than today.


Agreed, we need a new belief system but sadly any new belief system would be just as vigorously opposed as current belief system oppose each other now. Humanity shows no sign of becoming more rational any time soon . I would even go as far as to to say that irrationality seems to be in the increase.

#14 charles brough

charles brough

    "overviewist"

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 531 posts

Posted 28 October 2008 - 09:18 AM

Agreed, we need a new belief system but sadly any new belief system would be just as vigorously opposed as current belief system oppose each other now. Humanity shows no sign of becoming more rational any time soon . I would even go as far as to to say that irrationality seems to be in the increase.


Oh, I don't think people are LESS rational now than they were before! It used to be that even scientists (such as the great ones of the 17th and 18th century) believed in God and spirits. Now, it is mainly only the Penticolstals, Baptists and Evangelicals in the US. In the rest of the world, there are billions of people who believe secularly and are only liberal in their belief in their own religions.

Besides, even ancient people were rational. The just didn't know what we have gradually learned. Then, they based their agricultural or herding or hunting technologies on spirit causation. It was still cause and effect they used. Now we find more accurate cause and effect patterns and processes not based on "spirit thinking."

What holds these old religions together and makes them last so long and have such influence is that they all answer the question: "what is our origin, our goal(s), how do we achieve them (the moral system) and what stands in our way?" We can answer all those questions scientifically (advanced) and, hence, have an ideology that is much more self-consistent than even the major faiths are. Being self-consistent turns it into a closed system and hence one that can endure for centuries.

Such a belief system would have to set space exploration and colonizing as the prime goal.

Right now, funding for NASA is totally inadequate and not growing. At any time, it could be cut. People are increasingly less and less interested in it.
Some actually resent the "waste of money" that it costs. After all, our secular goal is only "the pursuit of happiness." What can you expect?

#15 Moontanman

Moontanman

    Unobtainium...

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9029 posts

Posted 28 October 2008 - 09:29 AM

NASA has been the whipping boy of nay sayers almost from the beginning. People in power who want to act like they are saving money and eliminating waste always use NASA as an example to distract people from their own pet projects and pork agendas. The money NASA gets is minuscule compared to the money we waste on things like the war in Iraq, bail outs, subsidies, even so called pork projects often spend more money than is used by NASA. It's sad that innuendos and misdirection make up so much of what we "know" Most people would rather be told what to think than take the time and effort to see what is really going on. Very sad and very human.

#16 charles brough

charles brough

    "overviewist"

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 531 posts

Posted 29 October 2008 - 07:13 AM

Yes, people are mostly unaware of the importance of space exploration and colonizing to the future of the human race.

But, it is not a human "fault." We are, after all, unchanged for the last tens of thousands of years. All that has changed is what we believe. Our belief systems are what shape us and explain where we are. Now, the problem is that our belief system is divided by diverse old religions and united (weakly) by our Secular belief system. The secular belief system's goal for us is "the pursuit of happiness." Does that strike you as a goal that will get us out into space colonies?

We need a whole new belief system to replace all those mentioned above! In the Atheistic Science Institute - home page I show how to build such a world-view system.

charles

#17 Fitness

Fitness

    Curious

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 5 posts

Posted 13 April 2009 - 04:50 AM

Singularity -> Astronomical leaps in technology -> Branches off into: The Terminator time line (which i believe is false) or Integration with humans (Which we're already seeing beginnings of).
I don't believe it's a matter of if, but when the singularity comes about, anything we ourselves create is going to infinitely surpassed by AI. Through that, the technology needed to colonize the galaxy comes, ultimately saving the human(if we can still call ourselves that) race.