The European Union...

[Boerseun]

Once again, a thread on History as it's panning out...

 

The European Union is said to be the single biggest economy in the world, but for the fact that it's not quite yet unified. So it's still compared to the rest of the world as the economy of Germany vs. Japan, or the economy of France vs. Canada, etc. Economically speaking, if the EU is regarded as a single country, it will be the strongest.

 

But that's besides the point.

 

What I want to know, if you're a citizen of any of the EU countries, is the following:

 

Is there any feeling of unity amongst member states of the EU? Do you feel a sense of pride when any other EU member country does well in something? Do you feel pride in the Euro, or do you miss your old Deutshmark/Lira/Drachma etc.?

 

I mean, for instance, Tormod, do you feel any animosity towards Germany for their invasion of Norway 60-odd years ago? Or is Germany simply just another member state to your union? The reason I'm asking, is that there are plenty of South Africans who still have it in for the English because of the Boer War more than 100 years ago - and that was a much smaller conflagration that WWII, and nobody alive today was even born then!

 

Are there old Norwegians telling the young'uns how evil the Germans are?

Is political unity possible in a piece of land that very nearly committed suicide only a few decades back, in the lifetime of many people still alive?

Or doesn't the EU really feature at all?

 

As far as I have it, economic unity was the initial intent for the creation of the European Union. But political union is clearly intended as well, what with a single passport, no travel restrictions between member states, single currency, foreign policy becoming more collaborative, etc.

 

So what gives with the EU?

[Tormod]

I mean, for instance, Tormod, do you feel any animosity towards Germany for their invasion of Norway 60-odd years ago? Or is Germany simply just another member state to your union?

 

FYI Norway is one of the few countries in Western Europe that has *not* joined the union.

 

So I can't answer the question in context, but no, I think very few people today feel angry at (today's) Germans for the war. Some old people probably do. We do have a neo-nazi movement, though.

 

As far as I have it, economic unity was the initial intent for the creation of the European Union. But political union is clearly intended as well, what with a single passport, no travel restrictions between member states, single currency, foreign policy becoming more collaborative, etc.

 

The purpose of the union was free trade, ie free flow of money, labour, and goods. The political aspects of it are still mostly concerned with financial issues like what to tax and who to blame when things go wrong. And - which is inevitable when you have some 20 countries at the helm - the EU bureaucracy is a quilt of contradicting laws and policies. And it is insanely expensive.

 

But on the upside, the union has certainly helped a lot of countries. Portugal was among the poorest countries in Western Europe before they joined EU - now they are prospering. There are a lot of business inventive programs, and educational exchange programs etc.

 

That said, I do think the EU is helping secure peace in Europe, and I think Norway will join eventually.

[Tormod]

Do you feel pride in the Euro, or do you miss your old Deutshmark/Lira/Drachma etc.?

 

For the record, the Euro is not yet used in all countries. England, Sweden, and Denmark are examples.

[Boerseun]

FYI Norway is one of the few countries in Western Europe that has *not* joined the union.

My bad!

 

But being closer to the action that I am, do you sense the member states' populations developing a sense of 'patriotism' towards the Union, or will a Frenchman always stay a Frenchman, if you see what I'm saying?

 

Do people regard themselves more as 'Europeans' than Dutch, for instance?

 

Like you get someone from New York, who'll say he's a New Yorker, but firstly an American? Or is it the other way around, where someone will say "Sure, I'm a European, but first I'm a Frenchman?"

 

I'm not putting this too well, but I'm interested in how perceptions are evolving, and loyalties shifting.

[eric l]

You raise a lot of good questions, Boerseun, and the matter is quite complicated.

Unlike Tormod, I can speak - well, more or less, I can not be considered the official spokesman - for Belgium which was in EU even before the EU was founded : there was an economic union called BENELUX as soon as 1944 with Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxemburg. Of course we were part of the initial six, and remained loyal (?) members from the very beginning.

Do we feel like Europeans ? Sometimes, yes, but even there Belgium is not a typical case for Europe. Because of our different cultures and languages in Belgium, the Dutch-speaking Belgians feel more like Flemish than like Belgian (exept on sports occasions); but when the German direction announces important reorganisations (read "lay-offs") in the Belgian Volkswagenplant, we do feel like Belgians against the Germans (again) and not very mucht like fellow Europeans.

I think that in most nations, people feel like French, or German, or Italian, or Polish, or whatever first, and Europeans second. European solidarity is still very far off, but I think most people are aware that without a European Union we would be much worse off.

And, it may be a consolation to Boerseun, after Tormod's reply that Norway is not part of the EU, I checked with a lot of people I have frequent social contacts with (and they include working class and middle class, and all kinds of age groups). Not half of them were sure that Norway is not part of the EU, at least one in three was convinced of the opposite ! Anyway, one in five tought that Switzerland was member of the EU, too

[Freddy]

Are you aware of what the fundamental Christians claim about the EU? They say it is the Beast of the Book of Revelation which will lead the world into Armageddon. Millions believe this so take their belief seriously, not that the EU is the Beast.

[Boerseun]

Are you aware of what the fundamental Christians claim about the EU? They say it is the Beast of the Book of Revelation which will lead the world into Armageddon. Millions believe this so take their belief seriously, not that the EU is the Beast.

That's funny, if just a little creepy, though.

 

But that's been said about just about anything you can imagine, ever since the writing of Revelation. At one time, Hitler was the Beast, then it was the USSR, then it was television, you name it, someone will think its beastly. Myself, I believe McDonalds to be the Beast, and when they start charging $6.66 for a quarter-pounder, that'll be the internationl signal for all the McD franchises to rise up and destroy the good Christians in their vicinity.

[Tormod]

And, it may be a consolation to Boerseun, after T(h)ormod's reply that Norway is not part of the EU, I checked with a lot of people I have frequent social contacts with (and they include working class and middle class, and all kinds of age groups). Not half of them were sure that Norway is not part of the EU, at least one in three was convinced of the opposite ! Anyway, one in five tought that Switzerland was member of the EU, too

 

;) In fact I think you could find people in Norway who think we are members, too. We are in general one of the European countries that are most adapted to EU regulations, so we're not too far from being a member. But there is still a majority opposition to join. The last time it was up for public vote it ended around 51% against, 49% for the union.

 

As for feeling European - I do feel European and it has nothing to do with EU. It has more with living in Europe (geographically). :)

[Buffy]

I do feel European and it has nothing to do with EU. It has more with living in Europe (geographically). :)

...but there are all those folks who fear the day that the Viking Hordes change their minds and ruthlessly invade the low countries once again!

 

Just don't forget what happened at Stamford Bridge, pal! ;)

 

Be careful what you unionize with,

Buffy

[Tormod]

Just don't forget what happened at Stamford Bridge, pal! :)

 

All hearsay! :)

[Qfwfq]

Actually, before the EU there had long been the EEC (economic community, but weaker than BENELUX which had alredy closed border checkpoints by the '70s). EU is the phase of political unification; not so easy, as Prodi learned.

 

The European Union is said to be the single biggest economy in the world, but for the fact that it's not quite yet unified. So it's still compared to the rest of the world as the economy of Germany vs. Japan, or the economy of France vs. Canada, etc. Economically speaking, if the EU is regarded as a single country, it will be the strongest.

It is as unified as the economists choose to make it when giving figures.

 

I'm in Italy, with citizenship:

Is there any feeling of unity amongst member states of the EU? Do you feel a sense of pride when any other EU member country does well in something? Do you feel pride in the Euro, or do you miss your old Deutshmark/Lira/Drachma etc.?

Feeling of union has been increasing in recent times, finally. The Germans are still the Krauts and we're still the terroni and this will always be, just like there will always be Sicilians and Friulians even though Italy became a single nation way back in the 18 hundreds (and the regions were only really formalized with the current constitution, in 1948). You still hear amusing anecdotes about the often strong mentality differences.

 

Since Berlusconi lost the elections, the Northern League is no longer talking federalism it has returned to barking secession. Most of us just laugh at them and say "But we're in Europe, ormai!". I'm pleased enough even if France, Germany or Spain etc. does something better than them Yanks over there. :xparty:

 

I don't miss the lira, we only miss the prices in lire.

 

I mean, for instance, Tormod, do you feel any animosity towards Germany for their invasion of Norway 60-odd years ago? Or is Germany simply just another member state to your union? The reason I'm asking, is that there are plenty of South Africans who still have it in for the English because of the Boer War more than 100 years ago - and that was a much smaller conflagration that WWII, and nobody alive today was even born then!

The Venetians still resent Napoleon for having ended la Serenissima Repubblica Veneta!!!

 

Perhaps there might be some Italians that resent the nazi slightly more than the fascisti :steering: but not all that much more. :eek:

 

Are there old Norwegians telling the young'uns how evil the Germans are?

Is political unity possible in a piece of land that very nearly committed suicide only a few decades back, in the lifetime of many people still alive?

Or doesn't the EU really feature at all?

When I got here and I was still learning Italian, my grandparents (who were conservative and had supported the Fascists) would talk to us about "la vittoria" (WWI, 1918!!!) in hushed tones of reverence! In grade 5 they were still making us learn by heart the last bit of the telegram that gen. Diaz sent the king, proudly saying he had sent the Austro-Hungarian empire's army back up the valleys in tatters. Actually, we read the whole, rhetorical thing in class. That was in the early '70s and things have changed a lot.

 

In the past few decades there have been things that favoured youths travelling around Europe. Interail for instance, and the Erasmus project for student exchanges. People travelling around here are often enthusiastic to chat about things, across the language differences, exchange opinions and joke about national differences.