Killing Whales, Why?

[Cedars]

Over this past weekend, there was a small segment on a new show (whos name escapes me now) on Icelands intent to begin/increase commercial whaling. So I googled it:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6059564.stm

 

"There is no market for this meat in Iceland, there is no possibility to export it to Japan; the government appears to have listened to fishermen who are blaming whales for eating all the fish."

 

But apparently, the ban on importing whale meat (rather than an exporting ban) will not deter Japan from entering into this:

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15418174/

 

Why is Japan looking to import whale meat, when the demand is dropping due to the lack of Japanese interest in eating whale meat?

 

No worries! Japan has decided to push for whale education in the schools to try to create a market for whale meat.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/18/AR2005061800890.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4106688.stm

 

Rather than admit the whale meat is not necessary to Japanese culture, lets re-educate the children.

 

Apparently there was a problem so Iceland has taken a different approach:

"Iceland recently announced plans to export meat from its scientific whaling programme to the Faroe Islands, whose government maintains it is exempt from Cites regulations."

 

Faroe Islands maintains a small traditional whale hunt of Pilot whales as is the tradition. But even now we see there are potential health problems for the peoples who ingest such meats.

 

"The recent discovery of high levels of mercury, insecticides and other toxins in pilot whales means that whale meat consumption may have to be reduced. Pregnant mothers on the islands have been counselled not to eat it."

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/3104494.stm

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000D97EE-31FF-1EC9-8E1C809EC588EF21

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn2362

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/13/1052591789427.html

 

Some days I cannot help but look forward to the potential of a pandemic...

[cwes99_03]

Yes but speech like that is what gets you negative rep points and loss of interest in your topic.

 

Defeatest attitudes aside..

I think the problem you have with whaling is that their numbers are so low worldwide. That is the reason they are a protected species. Just because you don't want to do it or want to eat it doesn't mean that others don't.

 

I hate baked beans. Perhaps we should enact a ban on it too because there are other ways one can get protein and other ways one can get flatulent gasses.

Man I can't wait for some natural phenomenon to wipe out everybody who eats navy beans.

 

Edit: The last of this was meant to be exaggerated. Apparently, while it may have been seen as exaggerated, some thought it unwelcome.

[Tormod]

"The recent discovery of high levels of mercury, insecticides and other toxins in pilot whales means that whale meat consumption may have to be reduced. Pregnant mothers on the islands have been counselled not to eat it."

 

This is not an argument against whale meat. A lot of foods today contain poison (for example, a lot of fish in the Oslo fjord where I live contains mercury). Pesticides in agricultural products mean that you shouldn't really eat non-organically grown fruits and vegetables, either.

 

You can buy commercial whale meat in Norwegian stores and to my knowledge nobody has ever claimed that it is dangerous to eat.

 

Opposing whaling is fine, but a more balanced look at figures might be good - the whaling nations claim that the actual number of whales is much higher than the official IWC figures.

 

Personally I tend to be against whaling because I think it's a completely unnecessary source of food.

[Cedars]

This is not an argument against whale meat. A lot of foods today contain poison (for example, a lot of fish in the Oslo fjord where I live contains mercury). Pesticides in agricultural products mean that you shouldn't really eat non-organically grown fruits and vegetables, either.

 

You can buy commercial whale meat in Norwegian stores and to my knowledge nobody has ever claimed that it is dangerous to eat.

 

That depends on your definition of dangerous. It also depends on whether it is being tested for chemicals:

 

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/13/1052591789427.html

 

Interesting article I found that indicates our FDA isnt doing a very good job protecting US consumers from contaminated catches when it involves US fishermen*, could it be an equal issue for Norway?

 

http://www.al.com/specialreport/mobileregister/index.ssf?merc29.html

 

*link found when researching shark/sailfish in Minnesota; those results touched on at bottom of article

 

Additionally, because Norway has a .5 limit considered safe, and some tested animals exceeded this (and would require disposal of the animal rather than consumption) combined with the issue of whether these animals (whales in general) are beyond population disaster and as I understand it, there is no reliable way for a whaling ship to cull whales by leaving the females to reproduce, leaves me with the opinion that continued whaling is a hinderance to the goal of a sustainable whale population.

 

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/life/endangered-species/mg19125663.800-norway-loses-its-appetite-for-whale-meat.html

 

When posting the thread I had left Norway out of discussion in part due to the above link and focused on Iceland due to their inclusion of Fin whale in their hunting.

 

 

Opposing whaling is fine, but a more balanced look at figures might be good - the whaling nations claim that the actual number of whales is much higher than the official IWC figures.

 

Personally I tend to be against whaling because I think it's a completely unnecessary source of food.

 

IWC numbers link:

http://www.iwcoffice.org/conservation/estimate.htm

 

IWC admits there is difficulty in determining the number of whales in the oceans. These whaling nations are a part of the IWC, so I am unsure of what the debate is. A balanced look at a population which migrates and should inhabit many more waters of the world if their numbers truely reflected their recovery (fin whale). It would be nice to get the population of this animal back up to 25% of its original population (estimated of course) before declaring it sustainable.

 

http://www.acsonline.org/factpack/finwhl.htm

 

Living in Minnesota, I have been lucky enough to be surrounded by 2 well known protected animals. The Bald Eagle and the Timber Wolf. These animals were never of endangered numbers in MN but were protected none the less. I do not see a difference on scale between whales who spend time along the coasts of Norway or Iceland and still are rare in (or missing from) the waters of their former habitats and Minnesotas responsiblity to protect a thriving state population of animals that should inhabit a much larger geographic range.

 

The Minke whale:

"It is thought that minke populations have increased as they started to eat the food that was previously eaten by the now-depleted large whale species."

http://www.acsonline.org/factpack/MinkeWhale.htm

 

Whether or not Minke whale harvest will impact the future of this specie is an unknown to me due to influence of (hopefully) increased large whale populations in the future, negating the numbers of Minke now present in these regions.

[Cedars]

 

You can choose not to read my posts.

[Boerseun]

Interesting thread topic!

 

Playing the devil's advocate, I asked exactly the opposite question here, a while ago. There are some valid arguments both pro and con.

[Michaelangelica]

The Japanese hide behind a "scientific kill" of whales.

 

Total balderdash! No scientific reasons at all for whale kills.

 

During the War (WW2) many, including English, had to eat whale meat.

Now no one really wants it, so the Japanese have to run indoctrination programmes for their kids.

It is so sick.

 

The Japanese should be ashamed of their continued 'scientific' deceit and lies.

 

Their bribery of Pacific Nations in exchange for there IWC votes is corrupt, exploitative, manipulative and disgusting.

[Tormod]

Whaling used to be a big industry in Norway as well. I think the New Scientist article Cedars links to is right on the mark: the population's interest has waned, and the official policy is now leaning more towards a halt of all whaling activity. I think international pressure has been very important in this matter.

[HydrogenBond]

Some cultures project magical properties onto certain critters and if one eats them, one gets something that is more than food. For example , in the fareast eating dog is suppose to be like natural viagra. This may not be the case with any scientific basis (only certain types of dogs are bred for food) but the placebo affect can be strong at times.

 

The whale is like the king of the sea critters. It can kick butt on sharks. Maybe whale meat creates a placebo affect that gives the eaters the imposing power of a king. One has to debunk the mystical connection for demand to decline. The rational scientific isn't sufficient for that. It may be a psychosomatic drug that is hard to give up and go cold turkey.

[Cedars]

Some cultures project magical properties onto certain critters and if one eats them, one gets something that is more than food. For example , in the fareast eating dog is suppose to be like natural viagra. This may not be the case with any scientific basis (only certain types of dogs are bred for food) but the placebo affect can be strong at times.

 

The whale is like the king of the sea critters. It can kick butt on sharks. Maybe whale meat creates a placebo affect that gives the eaters the imposing power of a king. One has to debunk the mystical connection for demand to decline. The rational scientific isn't sufficient for that. It may be a psychosomatic drug that is hard to give up and go cold turkey.

 

I googled for whale myth info and found some. Nothing I would say is exceptional quality info. Heres one with several different places general myth:

 

http://www.worldtrans.org/creators/whale/myths0.html

 

A quote from a course curriculum:

 

"The Greeks’ knowledge concerning cetacea came from actual meetings with them in the Mediterranean Sea and from tales of other cultures which practiced whaling. The appearance of a 10-foot apparently smiling creature racing a boat would elicit different feelings ad hence different tales from the viewers from the appearance of a 70-foot creature spouting vapors and then submerging. Hence many early myths of dolphins represent them as the merciful and friendly side of the deep and dangerous ocean. Those of whales, although still showing fascination, tend to stress the more fearful and unknown side of the sea.(10)"

 

curriculum here

 

I found no reference to a spiritual/magical enhancement within the links I searched associated with eating whales.

[Michaelangelica]

Why?

Perhaps because they fart!:):cup: :phones: ;) :evil:

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s933906.htm

 

(Great article - but great job??:esheriff: )

 

This is worth a read too

News in Science - Whale brains are part human - 28/11/2006

Summary: ... Complex social patterns The researches found spindle neurones in the same location in toothed whales with the largest brains, which the researchers say suggests the cells may be related to brain size. ... Spindle cells may be affected by Alzheimer's disease and other debilitating brain disorders such as autism and schizophrenia. ... http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/s...85.htm?ancient - 22k - [ html ] - Cached - 28 Nov 2006

. . .

 

What do you think of this 'pro-ish' whaling article?

Opinion

Save the whaling

Issue 3 of Cosmos, September 2005

by Jennifer Marohasy

 

Whaling can be done just as sustainably as other forms of marine harvesting - if we remove our cultural blinkers.

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/648

[Cedars]

Whaling can be done just as sustainably as other forms of marine harvesting - if we remove our cultural blinkers.

 

After reading the article and the suggestion of maintainable harvests we can look a bit further into this. It actually might be entail greater protection of the whale in the long run. First we would need to agree that the whale resource is the property of at least all coastal countries who have whale populations (or could be expanded to include all coastal countries) To further muck it up we could declare whales the property of each and every nation. So how to divide this world resource up? By country population would seem the most fair method.

 

Sample population taken from this web page: http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/information/population/

 

China 1.3 billion

India 1.1 billion

US 298 million

UK 60.5 million

Australia 20.2 million

 

Faroe Islands 47 thousand

Japan 127 million

Finland 5.2 million

Norway 4.6 million

Russia 141.7 million

 

Looks like China and India would automatically qualify for the most whale take. Brazil would want in on this I am sure so heres their numbers 189 million

 

Now we have to figure out what is a sustainable harvest.

 

Minke whales - The present population worldwide is believed to be over a millions animals. Sexual maturity is reached at 7 or 8 years in the northern hemisphere. Breeding peaks in summer months. The gestation period is 10 to 11 months, and calving is thought to occur once every two years on average.

 

10-15% sound good for a starter? 100,000 - 150,000 animals

 

Pilot whales - There are likely to be almost a million long-finned pilot whales and at least 200,000 short-finned pilot whales worldwide. Males reach sexual maturity at about 15 to 16 feet (4.6 m) and 12 years of age. Females reach sexual maturity at about 12 feet (3.7 m) and 6 to 7 years of age. Gestation lasts approximately 12 to15 months and calving occurs once every 3 to 5 years.

 

Wow, they reproduce even slower than the Minke. We have to adjust our take to account for this. 5% for starters?

 

Humpback whale- It is believed they number about 30,000-40,000 at present, or about 30-35% of the original population. Humpback whales reach sexual maturity at 6-10 years of age or when males reach the length of 35 feet (11.6 m) and females reach 40 feet (12 m). Each female typically bears a calf every 2-3 years and the gestation period is 12 months.

 

hmmm. I dont feel very comfortable with declaring this population recovered yet. Hunting is possible but very limited. 2%? That would be 700 animals a year. It seems the average for this whales population increase is around 3.2% a year except for around Australia (Rates of increase. East Australia: 1981-96 12.4% (95%CI 10.1-14.4%). West Australia: 1977-91 10.9% (7.9-13.9%)). From this weblink posted earlier http://www.iwcoffice.org/conservation/estimate.htm

 

A harvest of 2% would really slow the final recovery.

 

Fin whale - it is thought that present populations are about 40,000 in the northern hemisphere and 15,000-20,000 in the southern hemisphere, a small percentage of the original population levels. Adult males reach sexual maturity at about 6-10 years of age. Gestation is 12 months, and calves are believed to be born at 3-4 year intervals.

 

I wish there were better numbers on this whale. What is the small percentage of original? I think this one is best left alone until we know more.

 

There are critically endangered whales still and their numbers are not harvestable yet.

Right whale- Bowhead whale -Blue whale - and others I dont list.

 

Doing a quick calculation, it works out to be 1 Minke whale per 60,000 persons if taking 100,000 whales and 1 Minke whale per 40,000 persons if taking 150,000 whales. This is based on a world pop of 6 billion. *someone really needs to check my math. Math is a really weak point for me.

 

Japan would be able to take 2116.6 if the harvest is 100,000 and 3675 if the harvest is 150,000.

 

Norway is way overharvesting under this formula: 76.6 @ 100,000 and 115 @ 150,000

 

While technically the Faroe Islands would not qualify under per 100,000 harvest, I think we should let them take one.

 

Wow! Chinas take on the world Minke whale population would be 21,666.6 @ 100,000 and 32,500 @ 150,000

 

Now what about the boundries for different countries. If the USA has a harvest allotment of x should there be some kind of restraint in place for Japan? Or australia being soverign and all, how close to Australia can China float their boats? If this is expanded into world resource how could it be implemented fairly? Maybe no whale hunting within 200 miles of any shore? That would protect most (if not all) of the proposed protection areas listed here: http://www.cetaceanhabitat.org/pdf_bin/hoyt.pdf

 

And for sure the countries who chose to continue not whaling are going to be pressured by those which do to give up some of the whales. I think this should be handled the way our local hunting is. We issue x amount of licenses for taking deer (as an example). Not every hunter bags a deer for sure, but that does not mean other hunters can take more than they are licensed for. Another way to look at is is border states. Wisconsin does not decide to hunt more deer each year based on how many deer are taken in Minnesota.

 

One part I havent thought out is what to do with excess. Should Japan be allowed to sell whale to another country, say the Faroe Islands? I am not allowed to sell my hunted meat or fish. Its for my consumption only. The other part is should Japan be allowed to hunt for say, Afghanistan or be allowed to purchace their allotment?

 

Cool info (dismissing all the military past) I came up with while searching for info:

 

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/um.html

 

total - 6,959.41 sq km; emergent land - 22.41 sq km; submerged - 6,937 sq km

[Michaelangelica]

Now we have to figure out what is a sustainable harvest.

 

Minke whales - The present population worldwide is believed to be over a millions animals. Sexual maturity is reached at 7 or 8 years in the northern hemisphere. Breeding peaks in summer months. The gestation period is 10 to 11 months, and calving is thought to occur once every two years on average.

 

10-15% sound good for a starter? 100,000 - 150,000 animals

 

As usual cedars a brilliant (in all senses of the word) post. Reminds me of Shakes pear's Brutus's famous "They are all, all honorable men. . "

 

There is probably a case to be made for "harvesting" of some Minke Whales.

 

I think what rankles in Australia is the Japanese killing of wales on "scientific grounds" -which is such balderdash, such a lie.

Whales make their way up the East coast every Spring and every cliff-face has people with binoculars whale-spotting. The radio stations give alerts. Once one had a calf in Sydney harbour. The foreshores were chaotic.

 

Recently the ABC locked up three academics with all the Japanese research papers on whales for the last 10 years. They emerged from the mountain of paper with 1-2 papers that could be called "science" and needed to kill a whale to do the research.

The Japanese counter that Australians eat kangaroos and emus and baby lambs. This is annoying criticism too, as both the first are in almost pest populations and lambs are grown for food.

The Ability of the kangaroo to control fertility is amazing (she can keep three fertilised foetuses going or "on ice" until the season allows for birth!)

 

We are also proud of the fact that we have the only National Coat of Arms (Kangaroo on one side of a shield Emu on the other) in the world that can be eaten.:D

 

PS

The CIA link was an eye opener.

Can I post it on US Imperialism thread?:cup:

 

If those refuges are not patrolled they will be poached; as we have learnt. Thousands of sharks are killed in Australian waters by Indonesian fishermen -just for their fins for "Shark Fin Soup"

Recentlty the navy chased a boat across the southern ocean to S Africa as they were poaching on the very deep-water fish "Orange Roughy" who have a very long lifespan and only re-produce very late in life.

[Turtle]

I understand the Gray Whales are coming back in the Pacific. People here flock to the shores and go out on boats to whale watch as well. (Oregon/Washington) We have one tribe up on the Strait of Juan de Fuca - the Makah - who have asserted their ancestral rights to hunt the Grays. Here's a link:

http://www.alamut.com/subj/the_other/misc/makahWhaling.html

 

PS The article has some numbers on the increase of Gray whale population as well.

[Michaelangelica]

- the Makah - who have asserted their ancestral rights to hunt the Grays. Here's a link:

http://www.alamut.com/subj/the_other/misc/makahWhaling.html

The Makah must have balls to hunt whales like that!

I didn't ralise how much money is in whaling

The key to Makah economic prosperity had always been the whale trade, and the Tribal Council began to realize that a return to this trade may just prove to be the economic savior that the tribe had been waiting for. Japanese market prices pegged the value of one gray whale at anywhere from $500,000 to 1 million dollars, and since the Makah were the only Americans with a legal treaty right to hunt gray whales, they would have no competition for these dollars.

 

Down the south coast whalers used a pod of killer whales to herd the whales into a bay where the Whalers killed them and gave choice bits of meat back to the killer-whales. Amazing story can't find much about it on the web

Exhibitions about the shore based whaling operations from Twofold Bay during the 1800's and early 1900's include a full skeleton of 'Tom' the Killer Whale legendary ORCA. He led a pack of killer whales in the hunt for baleen whales on their Southward migration each year along the Far South coast of NSW.

http://www.totaltravel.com.au/travel/nsw/southcoastnsw/saphirecoast/attractions/heritage/eden-killer-whale-9

 

http://www.totaltravel.com.au/link.asp?fid=538417

This was interesting

What size can whales grow to?

MINKE WHALE.

(Balaenoptera acutorostrata)

Size: 7-10m

5-10 tonnes

 

BRYDE'S WHALE.

(Balaenoptera edeni)

Size: 11.5-14.5m

12-20 tonnes

 

 

HUMPBACK WHALE.

(Megaptera Novaeangliae)

Size: 11.5-15m

25-30 tonnes

 

SEI WHALE.

(Balaenoptera borealis)

Size: 12-16m

20-30 tonnes

 

SPERM WHALE.

(Physeter macrocephalus)

Size: 11-18m

20-50 tonnes

 

FIN WHALE.

(Balaenoptera physalus)

Size: 18-22m

30-80 tonnes

 

BLUE WHALE. *

(Balaenoptera musculus)

Size: 21-27m

100-120 tonnes

[Cedars]

I think what rankles in Australia is the Japanese killing of wales on "scientific grounds" -which is such balderdash, such a lie.

Whales make their way up the East coast every Spring and every cliff-face has people with binoculars whale-spotting. The radio stations give alerts. Once one had a calf in Sydney harbour. The foreshores were chaotic.

 

Recently the ABC locked up three academics with all the Japanese research papers on whales for the last 10 years. They emerged from the mountain of paper with 1-2 papers that could be called "science" and needed to kill a whale to do the research.

You will get no argument from me, regarding the hijacking of the term 'scientific' to cover what is obviously a commercial endeavor. I would have thought more in the acedemic community would have put pressure on any institution that allowed this 'research' and the international community put pressure on Japan to produce publicly the science, to allow some proof that this excuse should be rejected.

Hope that made sense.

 

The Japanese counter that Australians eat kangaroos and emus and baby lambs. This is annoying criticism too, as both the first are in almost pest populations and lambs are grown for food.

The Ability of the kangaroo to control fertility is amazing (she can keep three fertilised foetuses going or "on ice" until the season allows for birth!)

 

We are also proud of the fact that we have the only National Coat of Arms (Kangaroo on one side of a shield Emu on the other) in the world that can be eaten.

I hope this was countered with 'we dont eat koalas.' I can produce a recipe for swan from my moms Victory Cookbook, which was sold during WW2. Eating swan was not out of the question at that time, but now its a crime. Times change and for the same reasons we shouldnt hunt whales (population decimation), you wont find recipes like that being traded around any cooking circles I know of.

 

PS

The CIA link was an eye opener.

Can I post it on US Imperialism thread?

Someone needs to deal with the military aspects of that region. :)

 

If those refuges are not patrolled they will be poached; as we have learnt. Thousands of sharks are killed in Australian waters by Indonesian fishermen -just for their fins for "Shark Fin Soup"

Recentlty the navy chased a boat across the southern ocean to S Africa as they were poaching on the very deep-water fish "Orange Roughy" who have a very long lifespan and only re-produce very late in life.

 

I think thats why its set up as it is, no access except for a few permit weilding scientists/researchers. Makes it easier to spot a poacher via flyover. Thats not to say there isnt poaching going on but it makes it alot easier to swoop in and ticket/impound any boats that are spotted.

 

Thanks for you compliments on my post! Its always appreciated!

[Michaelangelica]

I hope this was countered with 'we dont eat koalas.'

NO WAY-

They taste like S. . t. :)