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Guantanamo Bay


paigetheoracle

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If I remember right,its control over access. I think if the camp was on US soil rather than off shore, the laws of the land would apply, such as due process, right to an attorney, held without charges, those kinds of hassles...

 

That sounds extraordinarily right! I think you have hit it right on the nose! Very good job.

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Guest jamongo

I have this to say to you whimpering bleeding heart liberals.

If you have a better way, why in the hell don't you put it forth.

When somebody or some group is attempting to eradicate you from the planet, just what steps do YOU think should be taken. Atrocities...yes. Good...no. But in the name of intelligence, at least suggest some other more humane way to stop the terrorists. Who knows, someone might listen.

I live in Israel. I listen and read how you are so upset when Israel kills innocent civilians. The fact that the enemy hides within the civilian population and fires hundreds of rockets into CIVILIAN targets in Israel seems to mean nothing to you. We toture the prisoners to obtain information. Oh yes, we deny it, but we do it. And many Israeli lives have been saved because of it.

So go on an moan and groan and wring your little hands and curse the U.S. and Israel. I hope you never have to live under the conditions that allows such treatment to be tolerated.

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I hope you never have to live under the conditions that allows such treatment to be tolerated.

 

So do I. And I hope people like yourself realize that it does not help to treat others like dirt if you want to avoid being treated like dirt yourself. Or am I misinterpreting the golden rule?

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Guest jamongo
So do I. And I hope people like yourself realize that it does not help to treat others like dirt if you want to avoid being treated like dirt yourself. Or am I misinterpreting the golden rule?

 

That comment really borders on the laughable. The least, the very least you could do, is to read up on the conditions of the Palestinian people prior to Israel coming into existence. Then how they were treated afterwards. Why do you think they are standing at the gates trying to get into Israel? Jobs. Food. Money. For themselves and for their families. Working for the Israelis. You understand? We treat the average Pal better than any Arab country ever did. But....

 

Someone shoots a rocket into your area. "Oh, I'm not going to respond, because I believe in "doing unto others as you would have them do unto you."

 

Maybe the Neanderthal was a liberal that thought that way. Could be, you know. Where is he now? Nobody knows. Gone. Never to return.

 

O.K. Enough of my rant. God knows this isn't the first one and it won't be the last.

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If you have a better way, why in the hell don't you put it forth.

When somebody or some group is attempting to eradicate you from the planet, just what steps do YOU think should be taken. Atrocities...yes. Good...no. But in the name of intelligence, at least suggest some other more humane way to stop the terrorists.

 

If there is any clear evidence that the people being held at Guantanamo have links to any terrorist activities or organisations then they should at the very least charge them with some offence and then prosecute them. One of the most controversial issues about Guantanamo (there are many of them) is that the majority of people being held there are done so WITHOUT CHARGE! There was an Australian citizen held there for three years without charge but they finally let him go as in the end they believed he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. The Australian secret service (ASIO) has since declared that he is not a terrorist threat. Meanwhile there is another Australian citizen being held there for over 4 years and they still haven't even told him what he did wrong. He is being represented by a US army legal representative and that same person has been very vocal in our media about how Guantanamo breaks so many points of both UN charters for the protection of human rights and the USA's own constitution.

 

As for your situation, I can only imagine and totally sympathise. However, just because some Palestinians are religious zealouts willing to die for what they believe to be right, doesn't mean that you should lock up all Palestinians on an offshore island somewhere and not even supply them with basic human rights.

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If you have a better way, why in the hell don't you put it forth.

 

I have two better ideas.

 

1) Keep them as prisoners of war under the Geneva convention for the duration of the conflict. It's going to go on for a while frankly, so what's the problem?

 

2) Charge them with crimes and try them in Criminal court. Or let the UN do it. You'll know who is a terrorist as soon as the proceedings start. However stands up and starts screaming "Allah Akbar" and generally trying to make a mockery of the proceedings probably is. Whoever tries to tell their side of the story may very well not be.

 

Either way, the United States of America should not be holding people without charge, recourse, or counsel on foreign soil and subjecting them to torture, I don't give a damn what they did.

 

The quicker you are to accept atrocity, the faster it becomes impossible to distinguish between justice and injustice.

 

TFS

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Guest jamongo
have two better ideas.

 

1) Keep them as prisoners of war under the Geneva convention for the duration of the conflict. It's going to go on for a while frankly, so what's the problem?

 

2) Charge them with crimes and try them in Criminal court. Or let the UN do it. You'll know who is a terrorist as soon as the proceedings start. However stands up and starts screaming "Allah Akbar" and generally trying to make a mockery of the proceedings probably is. Whoever tries to tell their side of the story may very well not be.

 

Either way, the United States of America should not be holding people without charge, recourse, or counsel on foreign soil and subjecting them to torture, I don't give a damn what they did.

 

The quicker you are to accept atrocity, the faster it becomes impossible to distinguish between justice and injustice.

 

TFS

 

O.K.

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I don't think I am going to be Mr. Popularity on this thread. Oh well. :kiss:

 

Most of the men who remain in detention were armed terrorists engaged in combat against US or other forces. They are members of terrorist organizations sworn to the destruction of the United States. The organizations they are members of have no loyalty to any recognized nations. While some of them may have been members of the Taliban forces, they were not uniformed combatants as described by the Geneva Convention (although this is a gray area as they fit other criteria outlined in the convention). Those who are not members of such organzations have been released as that information has come forward. But even so, some of the released detainees committed subsequent acts of terror, or were killed in combat against US troops.

 

It is often insinuated that the detainees are being held forever. The fact is that as of a year ago 242 detainees had been removed from the base, with 173 being released and 69 turned over to the custody of other countries. As of November 2005 there were 505 detainees remaining in Gitmo. Of these 3% were scheduled for release, and 20% were waiting for transfer. Another 37% had their situation reviewed and were to continue to stay at Gitmo. While no decision had been made yet on the remainning 40%. I got these statistics from Wiki.

 

On April of this year the Department of Defense released the names of the 558 detainees at Gitmo. In May of this year the Department of Defense released the names of 759 former and current detainees. This information also comes from Wiki.

 

As you can see the numbers above do not jibe, which fuels the speculation about deceipt by the DoD in providing information about what is actually going on. The final summary in Wiki before they list the names says that around 750 men have been held at Gitmo and around 250 have been released.

 

The other on going accusation is of torture taking place at Gitmo. The US military has not been shy about prosecuting it members who violate the rights of detainees and POW's. These incidents are the exception to the rule. It is also a fact that the training given at the terrorist camps that most of the detainees attended told them specifically to make accusations of torture if they are ever captured. This is how they continue to wage war against their enemy even from prison in what is sadly a propaganda game that they seem to be winning. These are the same men who would strap explosives to themselves and step into a Mosque full of worshipers. Do you tink it is beyond their capacity to clai torture that is not happening? Or to even mark themselves so as to appear to have been tortured? Or to spread rumors of torture in the camp that cannot be verified, but spread as fact among the other prisoners? It is gauling to me that the US is at every turn deemed to be guilty of the most heinous crimes imaginable. The fact is that the military polices itself, and brings people to justice who violate the rights of prisoners and detainees. And does so in a more public fashion than most other organizations in the world. This is necessary because humans are falable, and will make poor judgements. And humans in an environment of war, despite the best training available, will make poor judgments, but are in such extreme circumstances that straying just a little over the line for even a minute can seem in the context of comfortable life far from the responsibility of the moment like the work of evil men. And still they prosecute those who stray, and in doing so give fuel to those who feel that all of the military or all of the US is evil to fan the flames of hate even higher. Currently there is a single man from Gitmo being prosecuted by the military for using a dog to intimidate detainees. No-one was ever bitten by the dog.

 

Where is the outrage for the actions of the enemy? Where is the outrage for the two soldiers kidnapped and tortured and mutilated last week? Where is the protest of the methods of those who have sworn the destruction of US? Is their action somehow justified? How many enemy detainees or prisoners have been killed in custody? How many US military taken prisoner by the enemy have survived to tell the tale? A handful. The rest have been found beaten, mutilated, desicrated. But the actions of the enemy are somehow justified by the way the US treats the people it captures? Where is the outrage for the innocent Muslims arriving for prayers when one of their own blows himself up in their midst? Where is the outrage when Mosques are being used as weapon caches and for mortar attacks and for sniper fire while being decried as sacred and exempt from being attacked?

 

Two wrongs do not make a right. And the detention camp at Guantanamo could have been done differently. That however does not make it among the gravest human rights violations in history. War is a difficult thing. Prosecuting a war such as this one is new ground for the whole world. The stakes are high, and failure to prosecute the war sufficiently is not an option. History has yet to judge the decisions that have been made over the last 4 years with the clarity granted by time. In the mean time I have enough faith in the facts I am presented to still give the benefit of the doubt that on the whole we are doing the right things.

 

I would challenge those who rail against the US so freely to give at least equal time to pointing out the grand human rights acheivements of her enemies.

 

Bill

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Where is the outrage for the actions of the enemy? Where is the outrage for the two soldiers kidnapped and tortured and mutilated last week? Where is the protest of the methods of those who have sworn the destruction of US?
The outrage is everywhere,Bill.From just about every corner of the globe.A Google news search shows about 1200 news articles on the torture of those two soldiers,from dozens of countries.I believe the majority of the world is disgusted by this.The protest comes in the war on terrorism being waged by so many countries.For the life of me I can't understand how you can't see the outrage that's all around you.I'm certainly outraged.
But the actions of the enemy are somehow justified by the way the US treats the people it captures?
Who but radical or militant Islamists say this?Where do you get this idea?
The fact is that the military polices itself....
Ha!As a veteran,I can say I didn't see this to be the case in most circumstances.You know that saying"what happens in vegas stays in vegas?"What would you think of police policing themselves?Politicians policing themselves?
It is also a fact that the training given at the terrorist camps that most of the detainees attended told them specifically to make accusations of torture if they are ever captured.
As an interrogation resistance instructor for a year at the army's SERE(Survival Evasion Resistance and Escape)course at Fort Bragg,I can tell you this tactic is not unique to the terrorists,and the involvment of an impartial humanitarian body,such as the International Committee of the Red Cross,would be a good step towards showing the international community that the detainees are being treated humanely.

 

 

 

Two wrongs do not make a right.

Exactly.This is the point.None of us knows exactly whats going on at Guantanamo Bay.The fact that these people are being held not on U.S soil but in Cuba and held without charges seems a little fishy.Bill,I just hold the U.S. to much higher standards than I do the terrorists.

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The US is held to a higher standard than a bunch of terrorists thugs.

 

They get to torture people, we don't.

 

They get to target women and children, we have to make sure there aren't any around before we kill Zarqawi.

 

They get to spread lies, falsehood and misinformation. We have to tell the truth.

 

The US is held to higher standards, which is as it should be. I'm not saying it can't make mistakes - or that a incident of torture on US soil places us as the moral equivalent of Osama bin Laden. But we should strive to meet the standard. We should strive to be moral. When we stop trying to meet the high standards we have set for ourselves and start justifying our failures with "we'll, we're still not as bad as they are." (Which is true, for sure, but not much of an excuse) then we're on a scary road.

 

Our ability to discuss this and decide that maybe it's not such a good idea is what makes us the good guys. Magnanimous in victory.

 

TFS

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If I remember right,its control over access. I think if the camp was on US soil rather than off shore, the laws of the land would apply, such as due process, right to an attorney, held without charges, those kinds of hassles...

You are correct. To locate the detainees at Guantanamo on U.S. soil would effectively grant them the same rights as U.S. citizens which would be abhorred by many in the U.S. Unlike the POWs of many wars the detainees at Guantanamo are all fighters caught in Afghanistan but most are not Afghanis so they are not detained in any POW camps in Afghanistan. Compounding the problem is the fact that the war in Afghanistan is not against Afghanistan, it is against an organization that has no country, Al Qaeda.

 

This has raised a previously unthought of circumstance regarding the Geneva Convention and the rights of prisoners. Al Qaeda has raised the issue of foreign fighters waging war in a country that is not their own. The problem continues in Iraq where many of the "insurgents" are not Iraqis, but members of Al Qaeda that would ultimately like to drive the U.S. assistance out so they can take control of Iraq themselves. It's really more of a criminal act these fighters are committing than waging war. In that vein it is my opinion that they should be treated like criminals rather than POWs but even criminals should have so rights. I don't have the answers but the sitauation at Guantanamo is better at the moment than setting these criminals loose to continue their efforts at conquering through terror. Terrorists don't particularly deserve torture but they don't deserve any freedom either. What should we do with them? Suggestions anyone?

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The US is held to a higher standard than a bunch of terrorists thugs.

 

They get to torture people, we don't.

 

They get to target women and children, we have to make sure there aren't any around before we kill Zarqawi.

 

They get to spread lies, falsehood and misinformation. We have to tell the truth.

 

The US is held to higher standards, which is as it should be. I'm not saying it can't make mistakes - or that a incident of torture on US soil places us as the moral equivalent of Osama bin Laden. But we should strive to meet the standard. We should strive to be moral. When we stop trying to meet the high standards we have set for ourselves and start justifying our failures with "we'll, we're still not as bad as they are." (Which is true, for sure, but not much of an excuse) then we're on a scary road.

 

Our ability to discuss this and decide that maybe it's not such a good idea is what makes us the good guys. Magnanimous in victory.

 

TFS

I agree that we need to maintain the highest standard. But I sense that it is somehow accepted that the human beings we call terrorists are simply going to behave the way that they and it is considered normal, and every isolated incident in the US military is portrayed as the end of humanity as we know it. That is the imbalance in the outrage!! Why do we accept the heinous acts of terror as par for the course while raising hell about the comparativly mild indiscretions committed on the side of good? Why should the terrorists "get" to do any of the things you list?

 

Every act of terror I hear about makes me more certain that we are doing the right things and need to fight harder to erradicate such activity from the planet - whoever it is committed against. Others see the same thing and think that fighting terrorism only makes it worse.

 

Tormod made reference to the Golden Rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That is fine until the others want to kill you at any cost. And they laugh at the mercy you show to them as weakness, as they continue to plot your demise.

 

Bill

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Terrorists don't particularly deserve torture but they don't deserve any freedom either. What should we do with them? Suggestions anyone?

 

That's just the point. The people being held at GB aren't CONVICTED of being terrorists, they are only SUSPECTED of being so. As has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread, a few have already had their case reviewed and let go, some of them to the authorities of their homeland, some of them to freedom. There are people in there (I know of one Australian at least, don't know about the rest) who still haven't had their cases even looked at.

 

They need to figure out under what laws they want to try and convict them under and then prosecute them. What is happening at the moment is a complete travesty of any fair judicial system.

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That's just the point. The people being held at GB aren't CONVICTED of being terrorists, they are only SUSPECTED of being so.

 

They need to figure out under what laws they want to try and convict them under and then prosecute them. What is happening at the moment is a complete travesty of any fair judicial system.

People captured on the battle field who have been fighting against you in armed combat do not need to be convicted. I hope that point does not get lost.

 

For the second part you have no idea what review process is happening, yet you assume because you do not know that there is none. What is the review process for those captured by the enemy? Where is the inspection by neutral parties? Lets not act like we are randomly taking people out of their peaceful lives and locking them up in Guantanamo to rot. The suggestion of that is more repulsive than what is actually happening.

 

Bill

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That's just the point. The people being held at GB aren't CONVICTED of being terrorists, they are only SUSPECTED of being so.

Some of them are not being held as terrorists though but as POWs in a war against terror. They have not committed acts of terror but have engaged in war against us, a war which we are still fighting. Normally you would hold POWs until the end of the war and then they would be released because they are not being held for having committed a crime. In the case of the war on terror though, there is not really an entity that could ever surrender so the war could last forever.

 

It is this group that raises new issues. They have not directly committed any crimes like attacking civilians but they are warriors in a war that is not over. For some of them, setting them free is only letting them return to the battlefield to continue fighting against us. Detaining them to prevent this is a normal part of a normal war. This is not a normal war though so what is fair, setting them free so they can continue their fight or detaining them?

 

There is also another set among them that you are referring to. Those that were in the wrong place at the wrong time that have been detained as POWs even though they were not combatants. In a normal war they would simply be held to the end of the war, then returned home. There is not an entity that will ever surrender though so those detainees that are not actually warriors do deserve a review of their status. The problem is that there is no mechanism in place to do this since it is not a normal process of war.

 

This situation has given rise to the concept of military tribunals to sort them out but that has been challenged in U.S. court so that has effectively stalled the process. Fortunately it is a case where a ruling is expected from the Supreme Court before their summer break this year so maybe we will know something soon.

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