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Photons have no time


InfiniteNow

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However, I'm struggling to understand that a photon released from a star 10 million light years away, from the perspective of something else, will take 10 million light years to arrive, but in it's own frame of reference arrives immediately to all places

 

This is where the use of the word time is crucial to make sense. A photon may not experience time, but that does not mean it may move faster, or immediatly. For example, The function of the material that makes up the photon may stop operating untill it hits something, so its life time will act like immediation. But the distance/time, may not change.

 

So we have small matter operation life-span time, and distance covered by time. Two different things, and clarifying these two things will prevent the misunderstanding of instant travel from an observers perspective.

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Hi Arkain,

 

If you're saying that I will need to discover a complete and accurate definition of time before I can understand a photon not experiencing it, then I'm really in a lot of trouble. There are multiple threads on discussing the nature of time... multiple sites... multiple books... multiple lots of things... and no clear understanding has yet been arrived at.

 

What is mistaken about the instantaneious character of a photon I mentioned, when viewed from it's own frame of reference and not some other?

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No I am not suggesting you need to do that.

 

I am suggesting you contimplate your thoughts with the reference to photons experiencing no time as to there life-expectency, and not the distance they cover in 'no-time'.

 

This means velocity can remain the same, and the photon never dies out. So a photon in its view travels the universe instantaniously because it does not really exist in a detectable sense untill it reacts with something. So its as if you imagine it as frozen in time at all times it is not in interaction. Though from our observation it still covers the same distance per time.

 

See what I mean? If one confuses the velocity with the , no time factor, you get confusing logic.

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hallenrm:

because there cannot be any ultimate truth. We can approach it, just as the question posed by Infinitenow indicates v -> c but never reach it.
hmmm. Isn't that somewhat final?

Actually, in my view, this whole discussion is invalid...at least coming from where I'm at it's invalid.

I follow McCutcheon's theory of all things expanding at a constant rate, even down to the level of the photon. By definition then, the photon having experienced expansion, also is subject to time.

All discussion except McCutcheon's assumes space/time dilation, warping, whatever.

Why light moves at a particular velocity isn't really understood. We pretend we know why but we don't. We also assume, and in my view incorrectly, that the speed of light is the limit of velocity. It just happens to be the velocity that a photon reaches seemingly automatically. But we don't know why ... so I'm doubtful about the certainty of that limit.

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I guess the rest of us are speaking from the viewpoint of SR and current theories on light and velocity. There are of course non-mainstream ideas, and these themselves may come to be accepted in the future, but for the purposes of this discussion, as far as I am aware, the thread-starter was looking for understanding according to currently accepted models.

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Not only does light have no time, light also has no space. From light’s point of view, all points in our space-time are directly and instantly connected so there is no locality. Light is the direct exchange of radial energy from one particle (usually an electron) to another. There is no need to package light energy into photons and send them flying through space at the speed of light or any other speed because, for light, there is no space and there is no time. From light’s perspective, all events take place instantly and in the same location. This is incomprehensible for us humans because our reference frame always includes the addition space and time to events that are both spaceless and timeless. In other words, space is nature’s way of keeping all things from happening in the same place and time is nature’s way of keeping all things from happening at once. This is Mr. Viv Pope’s theory and I think it is an idea worthy of serious consideration.

 

http://www.journaloftheoretics.com/Articles/6-1/Pope.pdf

 

http://www.vivpope.org/publications_by_n_v_pope.html

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I'm struggling to understand that a photon released from a star 10 million light years away, from the perspective of something else, will take 10 million light years to arrive, but in it's own frame of reference arrives immediately to all places.

 

So long as the photon does not experience relative movement with itself as reference frame....no time passes (for the photon).

Time does not exist...only relative movement.

 

What is mistaken about the instantaneious character of a photon I mentioned, when viewed from it's own frame of reference and not some other?

 

When you use the words "instantaneious character" you have allready stoped using the photon as frame of reference. You describe the photon compared to you (or the world).

If you dont use the photon as frame of reference....time passes, becaurse it moves relatively to whatever frame you use.

Then the photon is not instantaneious

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Hello all

 

 

Speed of light is constant. Relative to other bodies its not.

 

Light is just a means of calculating time and distance.

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vector force speed of light

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< vector force Black Hole

 

Speed of light in this case is zero at the Event Horizon

--------------------------------------------------------------

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speed of light

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Vector force 50 %

 

the resultant speed of light is 50 %

---------------------------------------------------------------

in all cases the vector force of light is constant.

 

You can also make light bend an add more complications to it.

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From the point of view of the photon, there is no time. It leaves the one place and arrives at the next instantly. As regards the position of the photon, that cannot be sensed or determined, except in theory, as any interaction with the photon will "stop" it, at least momentarily, and so it has therefore arrived (and possibly left again), just to a different place.

 

From the outside observers view, the photon can be said to be travelling at C always, and the energy of the photon is simply changed when measured. This is blue and red shift. As far as I know there is no way to determine a photon's position without interacting with it, and interacting with it means it has stopped or been altered in some way, and hence the position of the original photon has no value until it has been totally stopped, hence huge uncertainty.

 

These "left handed materials" where n < 1 are currently theory only, aren't they? Anyone got a reference for actual experimental results?

 

It's been a while since my optics and lasers degree, so correct me if I am wrong.

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Hello all

 

 

Speed of light is constant. Relative to other bodies its not.

 

Light is just a means of calculating time and distance.

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vector force speed of light

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< vector force Black Hole

 

Speed of light in this case is zero at the Event Horizon

--------------------------------------------------------------

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speed of light

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Vector force 50 %

 

the resultant speed of light is 50 %

---------------------------------------------------------------

in all cases the vector force of light is constant.

 

You can also make light bend an add more complications to it.

 

Ummmmmm.... you're close but not quite there.

 

Remember that.

 

According to SR the speed of light is c everywhere regardless of what reference frame you speak of.

 

When light reaches the event horizon, as far as we can measure, light ceases to exist. However, we have defined time around the event horizon to be ticking by more slowly than in other reference frames. So even in the reference frame of say a person sitting on the event horizon of light is traveling at c because time is traveling slower. It is tough to bend your mind around but think about it this way.

 

Video record a car driving past you at say 30 mph. Then play back the recording at 1/2 speed. Is the car in the image still traveling at 30 mph? Of course it is. You can measure two distances and time the cars travel time between the two waypoints and calculate it's speed based off of the time stamp on the video. Just because you are playing it back in slow motion does not change the speed of the car you recorded.

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Will the universe create god, I have heard this before but lets think about what would happen here.

Somewhere in the universe life will evolve and evolve and become more and more advanced. Eventually becoming all knowing and then trancending out of the constraints of space and time and ultimetly becoming god trillions of years from now. Only then to return to the beginning of time and create the universe and follow through a loop.

 

Facts of creation.

 

The universe functions on a linear forward traveling direction of time. As we go along we ride along the forward traveling time line. We know what was behind us but can not see in front but we are constrained in our observation point on this dimensional plane of time. The entire universe is in this direction. The interesting part is that this line of time is only half a line. There is no two directions. A line that has one direction is a line that is created, or started from creation.

 

Time can be manipulated as demonstrated in the theory of relativity, and it is not constant. Theoretically this explains that time is not an infinite dimension in value or it would be difficult to explain how a thing of no value can have a constant and be manipulated to change, and most importantly have the capability to stop.

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Eventually becoming all knowing and then trancending out of the constraints of space and time and ultimetly becoming god trillions of years from now. Only then to return to the beginning of time and create the universe and follow through a loop.
Arthur C. Clarke
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Will the universe create god, I have heard this before but lets think about what would happen here.

Somewhere in the universe life will evolve and evolve and become more and more advanced. Eventually becoming all knowing and then trancending out of the constraints of space and time and ultimetly becoming god trillions of years from now. Only then to return to the beginning of time and create the universe and follow through a loop.

 

Facts of creation.

 

The interesting part is that this line of time is only half a line. There is no two directions. A line that has one direction is a line that is created, or started from creation.

Ok, besides the whole creation idea and God speak that you include on this thread which I believe does not belong here in this thread, you said some things there that need more explanation.

 

The universe functions on a linear forward traveling direction of time. As we go along we ride along the forward traveling time line. We know what was behind us but can not see in front but we are constrained in our observation point on this dimensional plane of time. The entire universe is in this direction.

 

Time can be manipulated as demonstrated in the theory of relativity, and it is not constant. Theoretically this explains that time is not an infinite dimension in value or it would be difficult to explain how a thing of no value can have a constant and be manipulated to change, and most importantly have the capability to stop.

 

Please go on to explain particularly that last bit on time not being an infinite dimension in value. How does "not being... infinite" suddenly become "a thing of no value"? How does "a thing of no value" not also be "constant" since no value is a constant?

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Please go on to explain particularly that last bit on time not being an infinite dimension in value. How does "not being... infinite" suddenly become "a thing of no value"? How does "a thing of no value" not also be "constant" since no value is a constant?

 

Yah sorry about that post, it wasnt very clear. A bit too much between the lines reading.

 

In relativity, time is not fixed as a constant rate of flow. An atom that has a lifetime (half-life) of say for example, 1 second. But, when traveling at a very high rate of speed, close to C, it will be measured to have a longer half-life (or lifespan..)

So the atom itself can move in time according to an observer who its relatively at rest.

Theoretically, and if I quote relativity correct, when the atom is at rest, it is at the maximum speed time can affect its internal workings (by that I mean its life expectancy). When the atom reaches close enough speed to C, it can be considered to nearly freeze in time reaching the stop in flow.

Because this, I stated that time does not flow constant in all reference frames. It appears, in my assumtion that, it does not have an infinite scale of rate of flow. It has a stopped rate, and a full speed rate. In the similar way heat has a stopped rate and a max rate in range of C, which means stopped, and full out.

But, the rate of an action for an observer will always remain the same in its own reference frame (ie, if we were refering to a space travler and a ship. In the ship time remains as normal.)

For what it was worth, I think that clears up what I said in my ealier post. Is this accurate?

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are there any crack pots trying to say that there is only one photon in the universe, and because they dont have time the one photon is able to do all the interactions that we see around us.. I think I heard about something similar - but instead it was an electron.. has anyone heard this and knows more about it, I would be interested to find out more :hihi:

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