Intelligence. Alien.

[arkain101]

I had this topic go through my mind the other day. I notice alot of hollywood movies have these plain lame views on an alien intelligence.

 

This topic is for the discussion on intelligence and relating it to aliens, regardless if there is or not other intelligent life forms out there.

 

The question at hand here is, Is it possible for a life form to become intelligent without first going through the same stages of social developement.

I conclude once a life form is able to attain the complex ability to develope a complex dialogue is only then is it able have a self awareness or self relationship. If you can imagine living without speaking a single word in your mind, heart, or with your mouth. The most you could do is associate pictures with feelings and natural physical expression for inner feeling. Yet you will never be able to say to yourself a single thought without the word to associate any kind of logical meaning.

 

So if there is any alien race out there, and they are more advanced. I would like to hear others thoughts on this matter of whether a intelligent race would be required to go through the same type of process of social trial and error developement we have gone through. Could it be possible to have heartless and unmoral like alien life forms that go around killing other life forms? When it seems impossible for a race to achieve any kind of self awareness and intelligence without first developing a complex dialogue system and going through the types of things we happen to go through like civil war, global war, disaster, self extinction issues.

I can not imagine a race of life of any kind reaching a point of high intelligence without going through a huge pile of trial and error which seems to inevitably lead to an state of being that cares for all universal things and life forms. Any advanced race should understand the preciousness of all that is and how easily lost it can be.

 

This is getting a little rambling.. But, what are your thoughts, considering the above, is it plausible for an kind of highly intelligent race to have even a hint of hostile intention? Is religous, and morals, and a 'heart' and love an absolute requirement that comes along with advancing in intelligence?

 

In my opinion I dont think if there ever was aliens that were intelligent to travel to us would differ from ourselves in the way that there would be little chance of hostile intention.

 

I'll leave it there for now. :eek_big:

[Eclogite]

In an effort to try to keep this thread on topic, would you be good enough to define what you mean by intelligence. I suspect if this is left undefined then we are going to find ourselves debating past each other, because of several, diverse understandings of the meaning of intelligence.

 

Once you have defined it, I shall likely be moving in a different direction to the one you seem to tend towards: I shall emphasise that alien will, indeed, be alien.

[arkain101]

Yah I apologize for the post, it is probabl a little confusing to follow.

 

I feel that once a species or life form begins to create a dialogue system and there brain is able to mix around these words in its mind is when a life form seems to take the step away from animalistic to intelectual (for us human). You see, imagine trying to live without the use of words in your mind, or able to speak those words. There is almost nothing you can think or do that does not break that no language rule. It is as if you lived in a state of meditation. It is difficult to comprehend, but is not what is important. What is important is once a life form achieves a rather complex language system, they can in there minds think of ideas, speak to themselves with logic and seems to me to be where the change goes from instinctive survival to intelectual survival. Once a species has a rather advanced dialogue, is when I see a more complex social system arising. And it would seem logical that the only way a race of life could become 'intelligent' or advanced enough to begin creating transportation machines and technology is if they first know how to speak and go through the evolution process that comes along with that. You end up with a history similar to ours where we have 'topics of dialogue' to fight over. Ways to think of new things.. I think you see how dialuge and intelligence are tied together.

So we see alien movies where these super intelligent aliens travel from afar and come to our earth. In most cases we see films of these aliens wanting to wipe us out. There is little or no communication and they just start anialating. Now if we imagine a time in our future when humans are finally capable to achieve some kind of long range interstellar travel you couldnt imagine us going around planning on wiping out other life forms.

 

So I encourae everyone here to express what they think. If there were aliens what do you think they would be like moral wise and personality wise. I think that it is impossible for a race to reach the ability to travel into space without going through the history and trial and error very similar to ours, where it teaches you wisdom and compassion for how delicate nature can be.

[Boerseun]

What you describe as 'dialogue' might be essential for intelligence, seeing as ideas and thoughts need to be communicated between members of a species in order for that species to be regarded as 'intelligent'.

 

However, our love of words is only an expression of our ability to hear, which is one of only five senses we posess. We have no idea of the myriad of other senses out there, of what else *might* be possible. It would be quite conceivable for a species to communicate with radio signals. We already have fireflies on earth doing just that, communicating in the radio spectrum in the visible frequencies. There is nothing stopping a species having that ability to develop intelligence. That might be a very handy development, enabling instant communication over vast distances.

 

I guess for a sensible answer to your question, we have to increase our sample of intelligent alien species.

[Racoon]

Well, we would be a bit egotistical as a species to assume other "intelligent" life evolves intelligence as we did.

 

Most communication(interpersonally or "interalienly") is Not even verbal.

 

there could be Telepathic communication of ideas, or symbols.

 

We have no idea really...

The possibilities extend to the limit of our imaginations

[Eclogite]

Arkain, your opening post was generally quite clear. What was not clear, and what remains unclear, is how you are defining intelligence.

 

Are you equating it to verbal dexterity, or do you simply see linguistic skills enable the development of intelligence? If the latter, how are you defining that intelligence?

 

I am keen to discuss this intersting issue, but I think it is important to get the fundamentals established early. So, I ask again, what is your definition of intelligence?

 

I lean strongly to Racoon's point that we cannot readily imagine the forms of communication that might exist: we are trapped within the success of our peculiar system.

 

What language has done is to permit communication across time. This has enabled the development of technology and civilisation. However, it is not the same as intelligence. That is why I think is so important you offer us your definition.

[sigsfried]

I find it hard to imagine any civilasation developing without some moral ideas. However wether they would think that it applied to us is another matter. We might agree that killing is wrong but nobody objects to getting rid of a wasps nest if it is in a roof. Maybe they will be so advanced we are seen as beneath contempt.

[arkain101]

Intelligent life forms.

 

By this I mean if a species is capable of figuring out the physics and engineering and other areas of study to the extent where they can travel light years through space and arrive at a completely new and alien to them planet or solar system.

 

You see, if we were ever capable to reach this point of what I am calling intelligence, to travel in large numbers of crew in large ships to far and distant places we would be also by this time quite the wise and learned type of civilization.

I think once humanity can get over its greed and tradition of the current ways. The ways of independent countries, claiming parts of earth, thinking somehow others are different than our kin. If you found a piece of pie and were able to ask it, what are you? what are you like? well the slice can only respond I am what I am and I am like that pie that I came from and if you found a different piece of pie, this one happened to haver darker crust, it would say I must be like that where I came from. When we see eachother, we think jews, race, sex, color, culture, size, stature.. etc.. yet what if an alien or something like this asked you, what are you like? what are you? you would respond I am a human, I must be like where I came from (both in form and in consciousness). My point in this is to say that it would seem to me that a culture could not very efficiently advance without first eliminating all the small details that hinder the efficiency and the progress in as many ways you can think of. Then can focus and strategy and progress truly be made without war and bombs destroying years and years of accumilated work and knoweldge. Without special individuals starving to death before they are old enough to make the next great discovery. on and on...

 

I cant imagine a species of any kind reaching such an advancement without going through a consciousness and great movement that eventually allows for equality for all individuals. Without advancing in civilization first, without becoming wise in morality and seeing through the surface differences.

 

All these things one would think would have to come before any one race/speicies could ever reach the point of inter stellar travel. And once on did, they would be so wise enough to make sure not to hand over this technology to 'ones' unprepared to deal with such advancement and power. For they would understand if ships were given to the wrong hands, more pimitive species who are still inside the box, thinking in domination and survival like attributes, these types would be a danger to any other planetary systems and such.

 

We have realised how delicate a planet can be, and all the life within it. We understand that preservation is important to the natural unfolding of evolution.

In my opinion any kind of advanced society / civilization of anykind, that is capable enough to have discovered how to travel in interstellar space would have gone through a long trial and error history, if of course they didnt snub themselves off, where they then arrived at a point of Enlightened wisdom and understanding. A flow in the gears of the universal mechinism and not a kink.

 

If aliens ever did exist, and ever did come to our planet I would assume they were wiser, smarter, and safer to trust than we could imagine. Although sure there are anomalies(if thats the word) that we could watch out for.

 

I cant see a species advancing without expanding there consciousness, without achieving noble attributes of wisdom and compassion and respect. Without being one with the universe and not mindless struggler who moves and claims and moves on again.

 

I think our humanity is going through this movement and shift in these current times. We are begginning to understand war is no longer an acceptable manner of dealing with problems because it has led to a point of being the only problem. People are beginning to see the differences are illusionary and at which point our weaknesses of greed and material needs and self defintion by what you do in life and not what you are, are decreasing in value.

Is there not an inevitable path a civilization will eventually reach? A path of what I consider to be the truth basic, equal knowing and respect of how we are one and there is no rush and nothing forever except for legacy.

[Eclogite]

You still haven't defined intelligence. You have implied something of its character; you have stated some of its consequences; you have assumed some of its prerequisites. But where is its definition? Since you seem unwilling to provide one, please tell me what your view is on this definition:

 

Intelligence is a measure of an entity's mental ability (inherent and acquired) to solve problems. The originality, applicability, simplicity and effectiveness of such solutions are important measures of the level of that intelligence. Consciousness may play a role in the evolution, or application of intelligence, but is not necessarily a prerequisite.

[arkain101]

Intelligent life forms.

By this I mean if a species is capable of figuring out the physics and engineering and other areas of study to the extent where they can travel light years through space and arrive at a completely new and alien to them planet or solar system.

That is the use of the word intelligence in this topic.

 

My definition isnt that important to the point of the discussion, I may have titled it incorrectly. The discussion was to be on the prediction one would assume of a alien like life form that has reached the ability and knowledge to tranverse space long distance.

 

I am not sure really how to define intelligence. It seems controversal depending on what area of intelligence you are looking at.

 

Definition of intelligence I suppose would be, a form of material which has the ability to operate on its own means not entirely governed by the fundamental laws in the physics of our known universe. (it has an ability to make a choice.. I'd have to think about it more)

 

What gives us 'intellligence' over all other forms of life on earth is in my opinion to have a part of the brain (mind) that is capable to have a self-relationship with a complex enough dialogue/language to acknowledge its own existence. Other creatures have communication abilities but not at the extent at which they can self-conversate the input of the situations around them.. I am not saying some animals dont appear to have this ability. What I am saying in my opinion is a creature can not attain the ability to design, discover, record, and teach and travel space without first aquiring a complex social dialogue which resuls in a social system.. and then on to what I've said before.

 

I dont want to get into too much of a defination of intelligence because I realize I am going to get a reply based on what I have said and that was not the purpose of this topic.

[Eclogite]

Right. I think you do have a confused idea of what intelligence is: on the one hand you open your reply by agreeing with my suggested definition, then conduct a discussion wherein almost every statement you make is at odds with that definition.

That makes it difficult to hold a cogent and coherent discussion, so I'll set aside the nature of intelligence for the moment and address some specifics you raised in your opening post.

The question at hand here is, Is it possible for a life form to become intelligent without first going through the same stages of social developement.

Absolutely. Indeed, we might well expect it to be the norm, though as has often been remarked it is difficult to predict accurately based on a sample size of one.

I conclude once a life form is able to attain the complex ability to develope a complex dialogue is only then is it able have a self awareness or self relationship.

You seem to have arrived at this conclusion based upon introspection. You cannot imagine having a detailed thought without using words. But this is because you are human, and the the human thought process is typically dominated by the use of words. I cannot think of any reason why this should necessarily be so for aliens.

Could it be possible to have heartless and unmoral like alien life forms that go around killing other life forms?

Of course it could. They are only heartless and amoral based upon your perspective, and that is a human perspective, not an alien one.

When it seems impossible for a race to achieve any kind of self awareness and intelligence without first developing a complex dialogue system and going through the types of things we happen to go through like civil war, global war, disaster, self extinction issues.

Again, you seem to have arrived at these conclusions based on a consideration of only the human condition. I think it is unwarranted to extrapolate that to all potential alien life forms.

I can not imagine a race of life of any kind reaching a point of high intelligence without going through a huge pile of trial and error which seems to inevitably lead to an state of being that cares for all universal things and life forms.

This strikes me as wishful thinking. You have no evidence to support this contention: certainly you have not presented any evidence.

Any advanced race should understand the preciousness of all that is and how easily lost it can be.

All the more reason, one could argue, for them to beat the living daylights out of any lifeform that looked as if it was half way threatening. That is, after all, the technique humans have employed as individuals and societies for scores of millenia. So, I have grave reservations that your description of 'intelligent behaviour' even applies to humans, let alone aliens.

[CraigD]

This topic is for the discussion on intelligence and relating it to aliens, regardless if there is or not other intelligent life forms out there.

By this [intelligence] I mean if a species is capable of figuring out the physics and engineering and other areas of study to the extent where they can travel light years through space and arrive at a completely new and alien to them planet or solar system.

Seems a reasonably concise definition of intelligence to me, and an interesting topic.

 

Science Fiction writers have struggled for generations to imagine intelligent beings with radically different histories of social development than our own. One example of this pursuit that I enjoyed and found edifying are the “Flowen” in Robert Forward’s 1990 novel Rocheworld. These fictional creatures are biologically very unlike any terrestrial life, being essentially big, undifferentiated blobs of tissue. They faced evolutionary pressures very unlike any encountered on earth. Although intellectually superior to human beings, and capable of human-like technology, they don’t have or see the need for it. They particularly love Math, and are nearly all versed in it to a level greatly exceeding that of any human. They are also fun-loving, and enjoy interacting with human beings.

 

There are many other fictional explorations of the idea of truly “alien” intelligence. I recommend them all to people interested in the question.

[arkain101]

This strikes me as wishful thinking. You have no evidence to support this contention: certainly you have not presented any evidence.

 

This is because I wanted to hear others thoughts on the subject. I understand how you are trying to understand some certain details to a precise point, but in the process you are overlooking the actual point. I do have my evidence and ideas and I will get to that, but after presenting the subject and basic circumstances I wanted to get some others thoughts on the plausibility of the kind of being one would expect.

 

As I will get to, I will explain further why I think there is a pretty basic system that I think needs to be followed for a species to achieve high technological skills and space travel.. etc..

 

im in a rush cant go on.