Perpetual motion

[ozi-rock]

I was thinking of something that produced energy enough to keep moving even if it had no practical use.

 

Just worth mentioning, Alexander has pointed out a very interesting toy which is related in this thread:

 

http://hypography.com/forums/science-projects-and-homework/14178-new-perpetual-motion-idea-3.html#post262327

[lemit]

I've always thought that the traditional perpetual motion machine would be designed to produce the exact amount of energy it uses; in other words, a total efficiency machine.

 

I suspect we've already created machines that will run for 100 years. But pretty much anything beyond that would be pretty good.

 

If you can make a machine run more than a hundred years without external power, I'll let you know where to contact me with the results.

 

--lemit

[ozi-rock]

Oh I know there are machines that have run efficiently for a 100 years such as trains and cars but I mean something that powered itself without the need for a new fuel source. I dont know of anything like that except the one in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us7YB7eiOeQ.

[freeztar]

Oh I know there are machines that have run efficiently for a 100 years such as trains and cars but I mean something that powered itself without the need for a new fuel source. I dont know of anything like that except the one in this video.

 

That machine can not do any work though. If it did work, it would lose the properties that make it "perpetual". IOW, it would stop functioning.

[TEguy]

The Finsrud machine kinda stops every now and again and needs a bit of a nudge to get it going again. They were talking about it in a show I saw once.

[Cloxxki]

Funny, I was thinking of that too. Circular magnets placed around a freely turning wheel. Wonder how much speed they could build, and how long the magnets would last.

 

Another idea, probably quite similar but more gravitation rather than magnetical:

 

This idea has been been bugging me the last couple of hours.

Could the UFO engine (donut shape filled with rotating superfluid creating gravitational forces running through the donut hole) be reversed in large scale and reduced angular rotating speeds, to generate electricity?

 

In UFO engines as I've read on them, electricity is used to accelerate the superfluid mass to create the desired gravitational force. As we already HAVE gravity, just running the other way, would the superfluid start flowing by itself? Electricity could be gotten from that.

I was thinking : fill up the Swiss particle accelerator with superfluid, reverse the wiring, and hook up to the power grid.

 

Thanks for your thoughts, so I can sleep tonight.

 

J

[sman]

Can you give a link to something you've read about UFO engines. I can't find anything. Normal search gets lost in pseudoscience. Creating gravity....I'm interested, but skeptical.

[Cloxxki]

Sorry I can't be very specific, but a Google turns up a lot.

 

> UFO engine superfluid rotating, etc

 

I can't post links on here yet.

 

Apparently the right hand rule for current and megnatism also applies to mass and gravity.

I don't even know the formulas involved, but I suppose spinning the mass (superfluids apparently are good for this) increases it's right hand rule gravitational effect. RPM's are crazy, and require a strong container obviously.

 

I am not writing that I believe in UFO's. Need to see one first. Aliens, as far as I've been updated, have not yet mastered visual cloaking, so I'll use my eyes for dividing truth from fiction. I do firmly believe that we are burning coal and splitting atoms where durable energy sources are greatly ignored. we just need to find something that allows for large scale use, and good power supply per tonne of equipments, with super low maintenance.

 

Perhaps the thing not making my little idea work, would be the need for the whole "donut" to be moved in the direction of or against that of gravity first.

But if this setup works are all, ANY circular flow of material being triggered from surrounding a gravitational field (earth's), in could offer quite a lot.

Else, I'm on to the next far-fetched idea.

 

thanks!

[ozi-rock]

Ha people probably said the wright brother's had a far fetched idea when they said they would fly, what's the point of living if you can't dream and take risk's :)

[GAHD]

oooh thread necromancers :)

 

 

The "UFO engine" may refer to some applications of things predicted by

Heim-Dröscher theory.

We've got a few related threads here: Heim-Dröscher space and Heim Theory.

 

Moontanman posted a news item relating to this "UFO engine" not too long ago.

 

This is just the type of black magic science experiment I'd love to see in person. As with bubble and condensing gas chambers, it could very well change the way we look at things.

[Minyun]

Hello experts

 

I am not in it for the money, i'm in it for us and our progression.

 

So, i have a couple of ideas that i've fleshed out in CAD. Those with the know how, could you please offer me your critique.

 

Here are pictures of the design. I created the angles and the magnetic planes to coincide with each other to make up for energy loss through gravity, i understand that the bearing which the spindle sits on will create some friction and possibly the air too. However, if i were to put this in a vaccum and either a) create the spindel so it rotated on free space (allowing it to balance between negative and positive poles) or created the bearing so it were highly polished, would this work?

 

[The dark blue areas are the magnetized surfaces. The front faces on the spindel being the positive faces and the front face on the angular cylinder being positive too. Obviously there is more magnitude where the angular cylinder is thicker]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Any feedback will be greatly appreciated.

 

P.s. The entire mechanism is 20mmx20mm (if size is any factor?). I was hoping to put these on a silicon board, connect copper busses between them and output power through a main bus. The idea was to use NdFeb magnets http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neodymium_magnet why? Because A permanent magnet is one made from a material that stays magnetized.

[arkain101]

I know this seems a bit silly, but I've got an idea using magnets that seems feasible, at least in my mind. I just haven't had time to try it. Is it truly impossible, or simply not yet done? Does perpetual motion break any laws of physics, or is it only not proven possible mathematically?

 

Note: I will move this to Inventions and gadgets when Tormod gets a reply to his guitar rig question. I didn't want to bump that down the list.

 

 

I am probably repeating a bunch of stuff that has already been said. Anyway, magnets can be arranged in some interesting ways. I've seen a few devices spin for a suprising amount of time. However, I think the moment you put a load on the device it spirals down and quits even sooner. However, this is not to say one can not arrange magnets to produce a useful engine. (with very little input, in order to get massive output)

 

 

 

One way I look at perpetual motion is this. Take a wheel, and spin it very quickly and put it in orbit around the earth. The wheel will spin for a very long time, but that is only because it isnt doing any work. If we tried to use the wheel for energy, the wheel would slow down as we essently suck energy out of it.

 

So even if perpetual motion relatively exists, when you put it to use, it stops.

[arkain101]

However, this is not to say one can not arrange magnets to produce a useful engine. (with very little input, in order to get massive output)

 

Like this basic idea. In this setup, you have repulsive magnets placed (with a fixed diameter) on the outside of an oval wheel. After the high point has been reached the magnets repelling with the wheel, cause the wheel to spin.

 

The magnets can move perpendicular to the rotation of the wheel, so after they accelerate the wheel, they are moved out of the way so that the wheel can spin, and the magnets won't repell the wheel on the next 1/2 of the rotation, Suppose the wheel spins 10 times, Then the magnets are placed back into position at a key moment to accelerate the wheel again.

 

The only energy being spent is the motion of the magnets, which could be backed by springs so that the energy used to change their direction is minimized.

 

You can imagine just using your finger and thumb to gently wiggle the 2 magnets back and forth (perpendicular to direction the wheel is spinning) with the right timing to spin the wheel. (taking in the fact the two magnets are connected to a single frame that can pivot on an centered axle, if you follow?)

 

 

Or you could suppose that the wheel itself had a curved track line, S shaped head on profile, and the magnets were stationary. With a precise curvature, that enables the magnets to provide thrust in only one direction. This should remove the need for any moving parts (if I picture this in my mind correctly it would spin)

 

 

The output could be greater than the input, but it would likely require a second system to do so.

 

 

This idea of manipulating engine configuration can be used many places.

 

In cars for example, it would be more efficient to build small lightweight internal combustion engine that turns a generator at a constant rpm, which in turn powers the electric car, than it is to have a combustion engine configured to run at all kinds of different rpms while connected to a transmission and drive line.

 

When we try to build a car engine to operate at various rpms and loads it becomes incredibly complex to maintain efficiency. Where as, if you took a diesel engine and configured it to run with its best power to efficiency range around 1000rpm, and connected it to a generator, the engine would use very little fuel, while producing constant charge and power, which could be delivered through electric engines much more efficiently than a transmission / differential drive line.

(I have no proof of this, I am simply speculating based on general knowledge)

[arkain101]

Then again, there is always that initial force that gets in the way when the magnets attempt to pass over each other. :hihi:

[TEguy]

Like poles repel, opposite poles attract.

...or was it the other way around...

[lawcat]

Perpetual Motion is a particle, earth, Sun, for all practical purposes. If it exist, then it can be created. Any discovery, and there have been some in the past, that is or approaches perpetual motion will be rejected because it is not economical; it does not result in economic dependency.

[freeztar]

Perpetual Motion is a particle, earth, Sun, for all practical purposes.

This is not true. Stars burn out, planets disappear, and particles are theorized to lose all of their energy somewhere down the line (+[math]10^100[/math] years away at least) if the universe keeps expanding.

 

If it exist, then it can be created.

 

You sure about that? I exist, though I've never seen anyone create another me. Not that it is eternally impossible, but it currently is.

 

Any discovery, and there have been some in the past, that is or approaches perpetual motion will be rejected because it is not economical; it does not result in economic dependency.

 

I agree that it is not economical in an energy sense. You're always losing more than you spend. No investor would bet on that.