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Moral Compass - how do you stay on course?


TheBigDog

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What are the standards by which you determine what is right and what is wrong? What is good and what is evil? Christianity has the Ten Commandments and the teachings of Jesus as guide posts for moral behavior. Other religions have similar written codes to define appropriate behavior.

 

I am curious about how people understand, define and honor their moral compass. Especially those who do not follow formal religious doctrine.

 

1) What do you think the purpose of a value system is?

2) How do you judge what is right to do, and what is wrong to do?

3) How do you discipline yourself to not stray from those values that you have defined?

4) How would society benefit it more people lived by your values?

5) What do you do to instill values in your children?

6) Would you be willing to share your personal "Ten Commandments"

 

I will kick this off by filling it in for myself...

 

1) Values are used to allow you and your offspring to be successful - genetic need to live and thrive. Common sets of values are used to provide harmony in a society - species need to live and thrive.

 

2) I judge right from wrong by how any act affects myself, my family, and my society. This has to be a rational decision, not an emotional one. But that doesn't mean that any action taken against me is immoral. If I am guilty, then I pay the price for my own actions. Facing the consequences of my own poorly chosen actions may be difficult sometimes, but it doesn't make the application consequences onto me immoral. It means that I need to take my lumps and do better next time.

 

3) I consciously reflect about the consequences of my actions. If the consequences are harmful to myself, my family or my society, then that weighs against that action. If the odds of harm are minimal, then that weighs toward something hat would be enjoyable. You weight the possible pain with the possible pleasure, choose your path, and accept your fate. As I have grown, and my responsibilities have changed, the weights in that equation have changed. Before I was married and had children I lost my driving privilege several times for speeding, getting several tickets per year. Since I got married I have never received a ticket. My priorities changed, and I changed my behavior as a result.

 

4) If everyone lived by my values there would be very little conflict, but there would be a great deal of competition.

 

5) I challenge my children to think and to learn about things; to increase their understanding of themselves and what they hold dear. I try to get them to think the way that I do. This does not mean that I can force them to think like I do. It means that I give them an initial direction, and advice along the way. I cannot guarantee that my kids will follow in my footsteps, or that they will lead perfect lives. I certainly have made my share of mistakes. But I use each experience to build myself into a better person - to make better decisions and hold true to what I believe. And if that is all they learn from me then they will do great. It is a journey. As very young children, if they are on the wrong path, I let them know it in no uncertain terms. As they get older they will need the skills to look objectively at themselves and their actions and make the judgments on their own and they earn more trust to explore as they demonstrate what I call a good survival instinct. To make good judgments they need a strong value system, so I give them mine, and if they find a better I may adopt it too.

 

6) My personal "Ten Commandments". Well, here it goes.

 

I - Do to others as you would have others do to you - except for fetishes

II - Ask for help when you need it, but be prepared to get things done by yourself

III - Take responsibility for your actions

IV - Provide value to others

V - Understand politics and participate in elections

VI - Defend and promote what is right

VII - Be honest, but know when to protect the truth

VIII - Leave the world better for having been there

IX - Honor your debts

X - Cherish love and friendship when it is found - and return it in kind

 

That is not all of them, but I said ten. Would Polonious be proud of me? Do my kids stand a chance?

 

Bill

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I am answering as a bible believer. Good thread, important questions. Thanx, man.

  1. The purpose of a set of values is to keep people from harming others in their pursuits.
  2. My guideline is the golden rule, and the bible it came from.
  3. Submit to conscience, as opposed to rationalizing selfish behavior. I also try to be cautiously concerned for the effects that my vices may have on others.
  4. Looking at society as a collective entity, since one cannot exist seperately, we will either help each other survive or, without the golden rule, tear ourselves apart.
  5. Leading by example, pleading by reason. Also positive reinforcement to accompany success and negative for otherwise. A caveat with my value system: it doesn't leave room for losing my temper, so all this must be done in as calm and loving tone as humanly possible.
  6. Well, I could just say that my "ten" are "the ten", but there's more. I gain all I can between the bibles covers. Here's a good start:

    Owe no man anything, save to love one another: for he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law.”


    For ye, brethren, were called for freedom; only use not your freedom for an occasion to the flesh, but through love be servants one to another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

     

    But I say, walk by the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would. But if ye are led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

     

    Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties, envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

     

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control; against such there is no law. And they that are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts thereof.

     

    If we live by the Spirit, by the Spirit let us also walk. Let us not become vainglorious, provoking one another, envying one another.”


    If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, cannot love God whom he hath not seen. And this commandment have we from him, that he who loveth God love his brother also.”


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What are the standards by which you determine what is right and what is wrong?

I like your Ten Commandments. If I can succeed in living by these five, I'll try and think of another five.* :rainbow:

 

1. Do as you will, but do no harm.

2. Have respect for others doing likewise.

3. Follow your Spiritual path to the best of your understanding.

4. Have respect for others' ways of expressing their Spiritual path.

5. Be of service to others and the broader community.

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What are the standards by which you determine what is right and what is wrong? What is good and what is evil?

I am curious about how people understand, define and honor their moral compass. Especially those who do not follow formal religious doctrine.

 

1) What do you think the purpose of a value system is?

2) How do you judge what is right to do, and what is wrong to do?

3) How do you discipline yourself to not stray from those values that you have defined?

4) How would society benefit it more people lived by your values?

5) What do you do to instill values in your children?

6) Would you be willing to share your personal "Ten Commandments"

 

 

As someone who does not follow any religious doctrine, I would say I determine my choices by trying to weigh in using cause and effect of an action taken. Good and evil do not come into my decisions.

 

I would say the purpose of a value system is foremost to protect self from harm. This would often lead to others being protected from harm and thereby having a positive effect on more than less in the community and society. The most simplist approach I take to judging right/wrong is ask myself the simple questions of 'will I go to jail?' or 'will I get hurt?' etc. Even if I answer the previous questions yes, I will still try to resolve the question, 'Is it worth it?'

 

As far as instilling value into my kid it was with explaining the cause/effect of actions taken. If your mean to the dog, the dog wont come to you, types of examples. I was lucky though. My kid had few issues of right/wrong so maybe I am not the person to answer this one. The basic rule was Dont do anything that will bring the cops home. And watching the Cops TV show further instilled the fact that Mom is right about that. :rainbow:

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Webenton:

What are the standards by which you determine what is right and what is wrong? What is good and what is evil?

I am curious about how people understand, define and honor their moral compass. Especially those who do not follow formal religious doctrine.

 

1) What do you think the purpose of a value system is?

2) How do you judge what is right to do, and what is wrong to do?

3) How do you discipline yourself to not stray from those values that you have defined?

4) How would society benefit it more people lived by your values?

5) What do you do to instill values in your children?

6) Would you be willing to share your personal "Ten Commandments"

Very well put. I'll try to share my understanding of this.

 

That which sustains and enhances life is good.

 

That which decreases/destroys one's ability to live and/or enhance one's life is evil.

 

The highest value to me is my life and my capacity to enjoy it.

 

All other values are secondary to the value of my life.

 

It is Right to so identify my value. It is Right that I own my life and can do with it what I wish. Nothing and nobody can own me, except me.

 

It is Right that some things in existence are extensions of myself and are necessary for my survival. Those things are created by me or have been acquired by me to enhance my ability to survive and enjoy my life. These things are considered 'owned' by me.

 

It is Right that I can so 'own' things.

 

I cannot own another Human Being. Only Beings such as myself can own things as I do although lesser creatures should be honored for the life they have and for the way in which they must survive but never to the detriment of my life.

 

My survival is totally determined by my nature as a human being. That is, as a creature I have been provided with certain capacities and as a person I have developed certain capabilities that lend themselves to my creating and acquiring that which is necessary for me to survive.

 

Moral behavior is behavior that is in line with my nature and does not violate any of the Rights belonging to other creatures of my kind and which does not dishonor the life of other creatures or cause undue hardship or pain to those creatures other than that which is required for my survival.

 

Any behavior which inherently causes pain and/or decreases the life or ability of another to enjoy their life is immoral and fundamentally evil.

 

I must be protected against others of my kind that do not live in accordance with these observations because it is not life that they seek.

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My “moral compass” has been spinning pretty wildly of late.

 

Most of my life, I’ve followed what seemed a simple and rational code, a generalized version of the Golden Rule: help, don’t hurt, your neighbors; define “neighbor” broadly, beyond meaning just your own people, species, or biological kingdom. Therefore, I expel intruding bugs rather than poison or squash them, and absolutely would not kill another person, even to protect my own life, limb, or property.

 

At the same time, over the years, my concept of what “hurting” and “helping” has become more complicated. I understand that, for most ecosystems, preserving individual plants and animals, and even whole species, is one of he worst things one can do for the overall health of the system – wetlands, prairies, and woods are not unchanging, but cycle through different configurations, Predators, parasites, extinctions and aggressive habitat invasion an essential parts of the process. Nature likes it rough. Nature likes disease, death, ruthlessness, and a whole host of things that are abhorrent to me. In nature, the Golden Rule does not guarantee kindness. It seems not an unreasonable conjecture that human culture “likes” exploitation, war, and a host of things I, with my simplistic, emotional moral system, condemn.

 

In the end, I find comfort amid the conflict these differing points of view produce in me from a surprising (to me) source: several short essays from the 120 invited contributors to The Edge annual question 2005: "WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE IS TRUE EVEN THOUGH YOU CANNOT PROVE IT?". While many of these essays are very optimistic and exhausting of humanity, these were not the ones I found comforting. Rather, it was the essays, primarily from neuropsychologist and AI researchers such as Robert Provine, and Alex Pentland, suggesting that human consciousness may be, for lack of a better description “highly overrated”. If this is so – and I believe it is – moral questions – and the quandaries their contemplation can produce – are of less consequence than they seem. The distinction between human, animal, and inanimate processes is less significant than I have long assumed. My own importance in the universe is less than I intuitively believe.

 

Practically, I live no differently after this epiphany than before – I still strive to be kind and helpful to all living things, and avoid thoughtless actions – but the question “how do you stay the course” is now transformed, for me, to “is the course we follow really within our conscious ability to stay, or stray from?” A theist might describe me as having surrendered my will to God. As a naturalist, I would describe it as just as becoming more humble.

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I just try to imagine the absolute ideal in every situation and go with that. Ie what is the highest degree of perfection in terms of solution or stance to take. Of course in the back of my mind I have a list of all of the known positive human virtues eg courage, determination, compassion etc and so if I get the chance I try to prove them to a higher degree than I have before. I superlatise all of my goals so that I eliminate the chance of self limitation and with that strategy hopefully I will reach my full potential as a human being. Its a challenging way to live because you seem to wind up always having to prove things to yourself but it does mean I dont have to worry about all that religious reading because invariably the ideals coincide when you have a mindset that seeks to imagine what the absolute ideal is. Sanctity of life, respect for all people and things that kind of stuff are elements to refining an ideal. I also rely on the truth a lot and the literal truth I find is the most reliable so I try not to say anything that is not literally the truth and I expect the same of others.

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I am answering as a bible believer. Good thread, important questions. Thanx, man.

  1. The purpose of a set of values is to keep people from harming others in their pursuits.
  2. My guideline is the golden rule, and the bible it came from.
  3. Submit to conscience, as opposed to rationalizing selfish behavior. I also try to be cautiously concerned for the effects that my vices may have on others.
  4. Looking at society as a collective entity, since one cannot exist seperately, we will either help each other survive or, without the golden rule, tear ourselves apart.
  5. Leading by example, pleading by reason. Also positive reinforcement to accompany success and negative for otherwise. A caveat with my value system: it doesn't leave room for losing my temper, so all this must be done in as calm and loving tone as humanly possible.
  6. Well, I could just say that my "ten" are "the ten", but there's more. I gain all I can between the bibles covers. Here's a good start:

    Owe no man anything, save to love one another: for he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law.”


    For ye, brethren, were called for freedom; only use not your freedom for an occasion to the flesh, but through love be servants one to another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

     

    But I say, walk by the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would. But if ye are led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

     

    Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties, envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

     

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control; against such there is no law. And they that are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts thereof.

     

    If we live by the Spirit, by the Spirit let us also walk. Let us not become vainglorious, provoking one another, envying one another.”


    If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, cannot love God whom he hath not seen. And this commandment have we from him, that he who loveth God love his brother also.”


as a fellow bible believer, i agree with what you said

:surprise:

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I am answering as a bible believer. Good thread, important questions. Thanx, man.

  1. The purpose of a set of values is to keep people from harming others in their pursuits.
  2. My guideline is the golden rule, and the bible it came from.
  3. Submit to conscience, as opposed to rationalizing selfish behavior. I also try to be cautiously concerned for the effects that my vices may have on others.
  4. Looking at society as a collective entity, since one cannot exist seperately, we will either help each other survive or, without the golden rule, tear ourselves apart.
  5. Leading by example, pleading by reason. Also positive reinforcement to accompany success and negative for otherwise. A caveat with my value system: it doesn't leave room for losing my temper, so all this must be done in as calm and loving tone as humanly possible.
  6. Well, I could just say that my "ten" are "the ten", but there's more. I gain all I can between the bibles covers. Here's a good start:

    Owe no man anything, save to love one another: for he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law.”


    For ye, brethren, were called for freedom; only use not your freedom for an occasion to the flesh, but through love be servants one to another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

     

    But I say, walk by the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would. But if ye are led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

     

    Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties, envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

     

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control; against such there is no law. And they that are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts thereof.

     

    If we live by the Spirit, by the Spirit let us also walk. Let us not become vainglorious, provoking one another, envying one another.”


    If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, cannot love God whom he hath not seen. And this commandment have we from him, that he who loveth God love his brother also.”


as a fellow bible believer, i agree with what you said

:surprise:

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  • 2 weeks later...

i've just read this thread and it offers some interesting insight into the question of morals. some of the posters speak of their morality in terms

of their obligations to others. some speak of morality only as an obligation to themselves. isn't there a difference here.? the believers here seem quite clear in their understanding and practice of morality. others seem equivocal and fit morality to the occasion. is morality absolute and quickly discernible, or is it amorphous and used only as you like it, and only as it is convenient for you?

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  • 1 month later...
1) What do you think the purpose of a value system is?
A value system is a generalized set of conclusions to be applied in place of a more explicit analysis of a situation.

2) How do you judge what is right to do, and what is wrong to do?

Right is what gets me what I want wrong does not.

3) How do you discipline yourself to not stray from those values that you have defined?

I analyze the situation and find the course that is conducive to my goals.

4) How would society benefit it more people lived by your values?

People would no longer engage in self destructive behavior.

5) What do you do to instill values in your children?

I provide an example.

6) Would you be willing to share your personal "Ten Commandments"

The commandments are a poor substitute for a system of thinking involving critical analysis of all assumptions and a clear bearing on personal goals.
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1) What do you think the purpose of a value system is?

 

The purpose of this is unclear,

while the fact that it happened because it had to is Very clear.

So it's purpose then would have been just to happen.

2) How do you judge what is right to do, and what is wrong to do?

 

well,

human nature takes care of my instincs, which is nice

and then everything i've ever known and thought helps me choose whatever I feel like I should do, or have to do.

Blows my mind that I'm not even really CHOOSING,

but riding the illusion of choice along reacting to actions equally.

3) How do you discipline yourself to not stray from those values that you have defined?

 

Values were defined,

but not by me.

I do whatever,

It will lead to something

Which will lead to the next.

And then that will happen, as well as this.

I get a kick out of peoples' Reactions.

 

4) How would society benefit it more people lived by your values?

 

We would agree to all kill ourselves because the earth is severely Overpopulated.

 

That's why everybody is alone.

And intertwined, at the same time.

 

Benefit Society? Not something on my list of things to do,

which is on a Cow Calender unfilled; a Gift.

 

5) What do you do to instill values in your children?

 

I would just be.

Supply them with everything they need,

find out the things they want-

Not push,

but introduce,

constantly influencing

and Understanding.

 

Honestly, I would probably raise my children a little strange.

But then this leads me to believe I will raise them normally,

like my Hippy parents did,

so that when i "Grew up" I would find my true self-

The one who wished he grew up a little strange.

And that's how this sibling and parent relationship works,

It's perfectly balanced.

 

Should I disrupt this pattern?

It'll still be balanced..

6) Would you be willing to share your personal "Ten Commandments"

 

 

No because I don't have any commandments especially not Ten, and especially not in quotation marks!

 

Things like these are constantly evolving,

adapting,

changing.

 

Document the moments,

Learn from the past.

 

It's like improvisation. s'why I love jazz, aye.

 

THANKS FOR THE FUN POST, BIG DOG!! ++ :)

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I think once you have defined the nature of the destination, with that being where you ultimately wish to go, and superlatise the nature of that goal to the point where you are initially satisfied with the fact that it will stay permenantly relevent, it becomes instinctual whether one choice is going to foreseeable aid the chances. I think if you first set out to imagine one way for it to be theoretically possible you give it a small chance. The strategy would then be to increase those chances at every conscious opportunity..and of course since you have divined your direction already..those opportunities become self evident.

 

I have two that I am presently pursuing which guide the nature of my actions and also the nature of my thought processes.

 

1. Is a musical goal (for I am a practicing musician)

"To create perfect happiness with harmony in every sitaution"

By setting this as a starting goal it means that my mind is automatically focussed on leaving every situation in a more peaceful state than I arrived, and what I learn through that challenge can be reapplied to an instrument in a performance instance to test whether a path to a greater degree of harmony has been created.

 

2. The second is to create global harmony.

So by way of example as a tie in to my opening statement I would begin by imagining one way for it to be theoretically possible. I began by getting the documentation for a world records attempt at having the most number of people playing instruments in one day. These people would be in pursuit themselves of creating global harmony..if they believe with that as an ideal.

 

I then seek to create alternate ways for the same outcome to occur. A reality TV show called "Global Harmony Pursuit" is my next strategy where each week the core organisers come up with and seek to implement another strategy...accepting ideas from their audience for what they might do inj future episodes of the show.

 

This increases the number of people thinking about how it might ideally be created, increasing exponentially the chances that it will.

 

We are aiming for it to happen at dawn on the first day of spring this year, such that it can coincide with the dawn chorus in your area and so be also an expression of harmony with nature. By having it at dawn we all shere the dawning of the same new age.

 

By achieving some measure of proof that a level of global harmony beyond which we had previously imagined possible we can help found our world upon common ideals, and so aid us in our survival challenge to resolve the problem of CO2 sequestration being only a fraction of the rate of emission. This then makes global harmony a goal that is harmonically aligned with my attempt to save the world.

 

Now you might think that this is ridiculous to even try, and for as long as it is we never will.

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…1. Is a musical goal (for I am a practicing musician)

"To create perfect happiness with harmony in every sitaution"

By setting this as a starting goal it means that my mind is automatically focussed on leaving every situation in a more peaceful state than I arrived, and what I learn through that challenge can be reapplied to an instrument in a performance instance to test whether a path to a greater degree of harmony has been created.

 

2. …

Your goals are beautiful and admirable, inspiring happiness and hope. You’re on the rainbow path. Welcome home.
This then makes global harmony a goal that is harmonically aligned with my attempt to save the world.
Some words of caution about saving the world: it may not be in peril, or in the peril one may think.

The world – the planet, its biological life, human society – have existed, from the perspective of an individual human, for a long time, and has always, from the perspective of many people, seemed on the brink of catastrophe.

 

The world always needs help, but never, it seems, rescue. A aphorism from The Whole Earth Catalog that made a lasting impression on me is: “you can’t put it all together – it is all together”.

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  • 2 months later...

Bootstrap is defined as: designed to function independently of outside direction—capable of using one internal function or process to control another.

 

For a 12 to 18 years period from the age of 6 to our mid twenties we have lived constantly in an educational system wherein we seldom if ever learned to function intellectually independent of outside direction.

 

How is it possible for such an individual to develop the internal processes (bootstrap) that allow him or her to become an independent critically self-conscious thinker?

 

Like the PC setting in front of us we seem to have an automatic default position. Our default position is ‘reject’ when encountering any idea that does not fit in our already learned patterns and algorithms.

 

Somehow the individual must find a way to change that default position from ‘reject’ to ‘examine critically’. Of course—how do we every not reject this message?

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