Why not?

[ldsoftwaresteve]

GOKU:

Therefore, would it be wise to say that all man's works are in vain?

Well, vanity is your sense of worth based upon the response of others, like seeing yourself only through their eyes. Pride is how you see yourself from within. At least that's how I see them. These terms get confused quite often and make things more confusing than they ought to be. I suspect you meant 'wasted', right?

Productive work leads to survival, which is the only coin of morality. And, productive work does not include dishonesty in any form. One cannot separate morality and 'rights' because Rights are identifications of Man's nature and specifically attempt to define the fundamental interpersonal environmental requirements for our survival. Rights are fundamental observations about the human animal.

Our powers of observation are what separate us from all other species and are literally the foundation of morality. Our powers of observation are also the foundation of science.

The future, if we have one, must recognize that morality and observation cannot be separated without destruction.

[ldsoftwaresteve]

tartanism:

im sure that if your god is as fair and reasonalble as you say, he would understand that completely

Thanks. My method too. I stumbled upon that way of looking at this stuff a long time ago and it's nice to see someone else using the same technique.

It's a beautiful solution because it brings Him into focus as an entity that can be judged by us and should be judged by us.

In other words, using our nature which is provided by the designer (this whole thread assumes that), we can look at the creator (our concept of) with a critical eye. That gives us the power to hit a different button on the elevator if He's a vengeful (looney) God. I would not want to be in the same room much less spend eternity with that version.

But in the end...that's what it's all about isn't it? What happens after we die? We're going to be judged by how well we did on the BIG TEST? And then we're going to be able to go fishing with Him or not.

And the whole idea of burning in Hell for eternity is very questionable. Why would He want that? Why would He allow that? Isn't compassion supposed to be a virtue? When He comes upon an 'ascendant' (one who died and went to heaven) on his daily stroll and sees them looking down with a pained expression and finds out that they can't enjoy themselves in heaven with all that screaming coming from down below....

I mean, are the believers thinking this stuff all the way through?

We live and we die. What if this IS heaven? What if this IS hell? It would make a lot more sense if it was actually both. We can make our lives good or bad, happy or sad, it's up to us and it's up to us now.

And all the evidence says this is it, there aint no more.

[Tarantism]

exellent, ldsoftwaresteve. you really expanded the thoughts that i had/have in a great way. its good to see that someone sees it like i do, and im not just crazy.

 

regards,

(((tartantism)))

[ldsoftwaresteve]

Tartanism, you're anything but crazy. Crazy is a nightmare world where things cannot be understood and people behave without reason.

[Tarantism]

haha, i would have thought that irrationalism is the problem with this world. that or materialism.

[Southtown]

Uhh, they can't take the benchmark WITH them your right. They die. But what they did was not in vain, since its left behind for others to build on.

 

Let me guess, you didn't think about that one did ya? Yes we leave this earth with nothing, we die, we decompose in the ground, naturally. But the energy we put forth to accomplish things during our lifetime....well, that will live on.

 

Therefore, would it be wise to say that all man's works are in vain?

At least until entropy is reached, right?

[Southtown]

i know about the bible becuase i a.) used to be a christian and b.) am very interested in religion. i dont believe because i dont like the idea of a god to fall back on when something goes wrong, or even right for that matter. i would rather except personal responsability for everything that happens in my life. im sure that if your god is as fair and reasonalble as you say, he would understand that completely

I went back to see what Steve was replying to.

 

My opinion on this is that preachers and churches who think that following Jesus is going to make their lives better simply don't understand the gospel at all. The point is that we sacrifice our lust in this life, and there's nothing inherently 'desirable' about that. Self-control is good and just, not to mention necessary to seperate us from the animal kingdom.

“

Self-government relies, in the end, on the governing of the self.”

— GWB inaugural '04

And getting doctrine from churches and preachers is apparently inadequate, and causes more harm than good. I get my beliefs from self-study, and I wish others would as well. But wish is all I can do. How is one supposed to combat the falacious piety congregating weekly? (on the wrong day even)

[Southtown]

And the whole idea of burning in Hell for eternity is very questionable. Why would He want that? Why would He allow that? Isn't compassion supposed to be a virtue? When He comes upon an 'ascendant' (one who died and went to heaven) on his daily stroll and sees them looking down with a pained expression and finds out that they can't enjoy themselves in heaven with all that screaming coming from down below....

I mean, are the believers thinking this stuff all the way through?

Case in point... see my post regarding hell, in reply to the second quote.

 

http://hypography.com/forums/theology-forum/2967-bible-its-religion-post44500.html

[SakmonKi]

1. As far as hell is concerned, Jesus used fire and brimstone in a figurative sense. Revelation says that hell and death will be cast into the lake of fire. Hell is a realm — it can't burn. You can't set a torch to death. It's all a figure of speech illustrating separation from God (who is the very embodiment of love and all that is good in the universe) as being the worst possible situation for people; a place of utter heartbreak, the loss of everything.

 

J.P Moreland (PHD - professor of philosophy/ethics at Talbot) commented on our free will being the ultimate expression of respect and value for the human race. He cited the difference between intrinsic value and instrumental value. By giving us the choice to reject Him, God is respecting our intrinsic value. If He were to come down today in all the magnificent special effects people wish they could see, we would be so compelled to believe in Him that it would violate our free will. And that would be utterly immoral. If we were all forced to believe in Him, that means that we (as human beings) would only be an instrumentally valuable creation. Something here for no other reason than to meet the quota.

 

However, by rejecting Him and desiring to be left alone to make our own way by the power of our own will, we are making the choice not to enter into His presence. He is not just caring, loving, merciful, and all the nice things we love about God; He is also Holy. "Holy" means set apart for righteousness. There is a myth that God can do "anything", but it's not true. God cannot commit an act of evil. Heaven cannot contain anything that is not holy. Hell is a place for people who make the decision not to value the things that God values.

 

2. The writer of Ecclesiastes was King Solomon. It was written toward the end of his life after he had experimented and studied everything he could get his hands on and throw his money at, and he was feeling a little skeptical. The reason he said that man's works are in vain is because of our repeated mistakes. No matter how many times you put someone in jail, they still commit a crime. No matter how many times you pull weeds from your garden, it always grows back. You can warn people about drinking and driving until you are blue in the face and there will still be alcohol related car accidents. That desire to be left alone to our own free wills causes us to do stupid things. Without God in our lives, "everything is meaningless".

 

The things we do that advance society and make the world a better place are in line with the will of God. He wants us to prosper. We want our bank accounts to prosper. Sometimes the two collide.

 

3. The Old Testament demonstrates God's mercy and patience as well as his judgment. The Caananites were warned hundreds of years before the Hebrews got there that if they continued to sacrifice their children to the god, Molech, their land would be given to another, chosen people. God actually changed His mind several times when it came to the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah. He was going to wipe out everyone, but Abraham pleaded for the righteous people. He could only find one righteous man in the whole area, and God spared him and his family.

[ldsoftwaresteve]

SakmonKi:

However, by rejecting Him and desiring to be left alone to make our own way by the power of our own will, we are making the choice not to enter into His presence

. So, although it would be immoral for God to come down in a pyrotechnic bang and say, 'howdy', because that would strip us of the ability to 'choose God'..... by making the choice to be 'left alone to make our own way by the power of our own will' we are choosing to die.

So, we are given a cookie but can't eat it. If we eat it, we die. Sounds sane to me.

In other words, we are given free will but can't use it.

Don't you see how dumb that sounds? It's like 'designing' a race car and then telling the driver that he can't use the engine. That is sadistic.

Are you saying that the designer is sadistic?

[Tarantism]

AH YES!

 

it would be immoral for god to come down and say "ahoy,silly scientists! i exist! HA!"

 

sounds like a convenient way for faithful to explain an unexplained reason for faith.

[SakmonKi]

SakmonKi:.

So, we are given a cookie but can't eat it. If we eat it, we die. Sounds sane to me.

In other words, we are given free will but can't use it.

 

No, you don't die for using your free will. Free will means making your own decisions. There are a lot of decisions to make over the course of a lifetime. I prefer dark beer over light. My girlfriend likes to teach me how to dance. I like to avoid waking up early in the morning. Doing things that God finds to be pleasing does not mean you are not allowed to have fun in life. Or ponder your existence. Or question the establishment. He gave you a personality and a desire to do something in your life for a reason.

 

"So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other .... The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." - Galatians 5:16-21

 

The "sinful nature" sounds like a lot of fun. That's why it's so tempting. God knows we are going to indulge this nature from time to time. But it's this giving in to temptation that separates us from Him. Doctors know that living like the above is just not good for the body. It will kill you fast — and not leave a good looking corpse. It's also not good for the spirit. Or the mind. It's living selfishly; for youe own gratification. It turns you rotten on the inside and that's just a huge waste of a great creation.

 

By saying this is sadistic, you assume He likes being separated from His creation. I'm not saying He likes it, I'm saying He CAN'T commune with it.

 

Exactly what kind of a reward do you think you deserve for thumbing your nose at Him?

 

Identifying all this is the first step.

[Queso]

identify that.

then identify the fact that free will does not exist.

 

there is no proof of it,

and considering actions and reactions theres no way i can believe in free will.

 

but thats a WHOLE different topic, sorry.

had to write that.

[SakmonKi]

Hey, that's deep. Start a thread on that.

[ldsoftwaresteve]

Salmonki:

Exactly what kind of a reward do you think you deserve for thumbing your nose at Him?

:cup: Aha! That's what this is all about, isn't it? Rewards. Dear God.

Why would he want me to shove my nose up his arse?

[Tarantism]

Salmonki::eek2: Aha! That's what this is all about, isn't it? Rewards. Dear God.

Why would he want me to shove my nose up his arse?

haha!