Crackpot Science And The Quest For The Impossible

[BEAKER]

SUSTAINED MOTION USING PERMANANT MAGNETIC FIELDS

 

I've been working on this idea for quite a while, with interesting results but no success in the sense of a truly working model- yet. It is considered to be against the laws of physics as we know them; and ultimately impossible. Magnetism is understood to be (equivalent) to gravity in that you can't overcome gravity with gravity, thus nulifying the possibility of "perpetual motion".

 

I'm not a scientist in the conventional sense of the term, just a dime store junkie in a garage with a limited resources and formal schooling, and regardess of whether or not I ever succeed in my efforts to accomplish this dream of sustained motion though permanent magnetic field interaction, I can tell you that I am aware and accept the traditional understanding about perpetual motion and the reasons why it doesn't work.

 

But I believe that permanent magnetic field properties are a horse of a different color; and it's not just because of theories and drawings, but because of serious experimentation in an area of physics that is seen by those with "formal training" as crackpot science.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, and it really is impossible; but if so I'd rather come to that conclusion on my own rather than simply accept someone elses pre-defeated conclusion based on colege level learning in an area that is simply not fully understood by anyone, no matter what they say.

 

Anyway, the "science" of any significant invention was never fully understood until after some "crackpot" went ahead and did what everyone else said couldn't be done.B)

[Boerseun]

Hi there

 

Myself, I don't understand the first thing about magnetism. And don't let anybody tell you different! They can tell you about magnetic fields, etc., untill they're blue in the face, but I still don't get how a piece of magnetite can do what it does.

 

But I digress.

 

Using magnetism for sustained (i.e. perpetual) motion, won't work.

 

Imagine: You put a magnet on a scale. The scale reads 1kg. Now, you take a piece of iron weighing another 1kg, and suspend it above this magnet. Now, your scale will weigh 2kg's, and the piece of iron will hang suspended in the air. This just goes to show that the iron wasn't hanging in the air by itself, but the weight was transferred and experienced by the magnet lying on the scale. (Assuming, obviously, that you were able to suspend that sucker in the first place)

 

So somewhere, somehow, the weight gets transferred, and energy will be required to keep any imaginable system running.

[BEAKER]

Myself, I don't understand the first thing about magnetism. And don't let anybody tell you different! They can tell you about magnetic fields, etc., untill they're blue in the face, but I still don't get how a piece of magnetite can do what it does.

So your basis for telling me it can't work is a little knowledge and a lot of ignorance - and I don't mean that in an insulting way.

 

That's like Viewing the overal possibility through a telescope; you're sure you see what you see, but there is so much more to be seen that you are unaware of.

[Turtle]

Hi there

 

Myself, I don't understand the first thing about magnetism. And don't let anybody tell you different! They can tell you about magnetic fields, etc., untill they're blue in the face, but I still don't get how a piece of magnetite can do what it does.

 

But I digress.

 

 

Imagine: You put a magnet on a scale. The scale reads 1kg. Now, you take a piece of iron weighing another 1kg, and suspend it above this magnet. Now, your scale will weigh 2kg's, and the piece of iron will hang suspended in the air. This just goes to show that the iron wasn't hanging in the air by itself, but the weight was transferred and experienced by the magnet lying on the scale. (Assuming, obviously, that you were able to suspend that sucker in the first place)

 

So somewhere, somehow, the weight gets transferred, and energy will be required to keep any imaginable system running.

 

___Let's explore the first things about magnetism we have experience of. Firstly, & contrary to your experiment description, any iron plate brought near enough to a magnet is drawn to it, not repelled. There is however, a repelling force in a magnetic field.

___I have some scans of my now ongoing experiments with magnetism & I look forward to what views Beaker has as well as his experimental observations & conclusions.

Nice reprise Beaker.B) Let's crack some pots; we can always make more.

http://hypography.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=619&c=3&userid=796

http://hypography.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=619&goto=previous&c=3&userid=796

[Boerseun]

Sorry, man! I meant magnets with similar poles towards each other, i.e. north facing north, etc.

 

I can see the magnet lying on the scale pushing the scale downwards, seeing as the floating magnet on top repels it downwards, but I still simply don't get how them suckers work, if you catch my drift.

[Turtle]

Sorry, man! I meant magnets with similar poles towards each other, i.e. north facing north, etc.

 

I can see the magnet lying on the scale pushing the scale downwards, seeing as the floating magnet on top repels it downwards, but I still simply don't get how them suckers work, if you catch my drift.

 

I intend to get the drift precisely as to how these suckers/spitters work.. When you say 'I can see the magnet...', do you mean that in your mind's eye you see it, or that you have such an arrangment of magnets, plate, & scale physically there with you? B)

[Turtle]

How about if we start with these 2 scans of steel pins held in a magnetic field? We will combine what we presume to know about the field, make (post) our observations of/from the scan, & then propose further experiments.

Sound square enough?B)

 

http://hypography.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=620&goto=next&c=3&userid=796

 

http://hypography.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=620&c=3&userid=796

[BEAKER]

I assume the magnet is the shape of the inner rectangle.B)

[Turtle]

I assume the magnet is the shape of the inner rectangle.B)

 

And so we begin: the magnet is 2" wide x 3 1/2" long x 1" thick. Note the 1" thickness includes iron plates about 1/16" thick , one on each 'face' of the magnet.

I do not know the specific type or grade of either the composite material of the magnets or the iron plates or the pins. I have 2 'identical' such magnets. I can/will provide photos & or little movies as we need them.

Turtle Over

[GAHD]

I'm guessing that picture was taken with the magnet below the table, pole-up?

 

iron fileings have always been my favorite thing to play with for magnetic experiments, but I'd like th get my hands on some of that ferro-fluid they've got now (really tiny iron fileings suspended in oil).

[BEAKER]

(really tiny iron fileings suspended in oil).

Sounds messy!B)

[Turtle]

I'm guessing that picture was taken with the magnet below the table, pole-up?

 

iron fileings have always been my favorite thing to play with for magnetic experiments, but I'd like th get my hands on some of that ferro-fluid they've got now (really tiny iron fileings suspended in oil).

Argh! Welcome ye urly pirate!

 

The magnet in the images: actually it's not a photo; I placed the entire thing on my scanner. The 'table' is a plastic cutting mat. the magnet is in direct contact with the mat. For the 'roundy' arrangement of pins the magnet is on a face & for the 'straighty' scan arrangement the magnet is on a long (3 1/2") edge.

I have no filings yet, but I intend to secure them to further examine the 'field' . I will BRB & edit in a definition of a field that Puff used.

Onward!B)

 

Promised definition of a 'field':

Penguin Publishers. DICTIONARY OF SCIENCE

"Field - The region in which an electrically charged body (see electric field), a magnetized body (see magnetic field), or a massive body (see gravitational field) excerts its influence,. There may also be said to be a field between nucleons in extremely close proximity (less than 10-13 cm) as a result of exchange forces. A field is thus a model for representing the way in which a force can exist between bodies not in contact."

[Drosera]

It's always been my understanding that whenever 2 opposite poles react with each other, a sort of magnetic "friction" occurs. This friction causes the domains to slowly unalign themselves, effectively reducing the power of the magnet. In time of course, the magnets would become demagnetized, rendering them useless for work, unless remagnetized again.

 

Assuming I'm right, you cannot build a perpetual motion machine using magnets. On the other hand, depending on the work load you give the magnets, it may be a very long time, for all I know, before they lose their magnetic potentials and stop working.

 

Anyone agree?

[Turtle]

It's always been my understanding that whenever 2 opposite poles react with each other, a sort of magnetic "friction" occurs. This friction causes the domains to slowly unalign themselves, effectively reducing the power of the magnet. In time of course, the magnets would become demagnetized, rendering them useless for work, unless remagnetized again.

 

Assuming I'm right, you cannot build a perpetual motion machine using magnets. On the other hand, depending on the work load you give the magnets, it may be a very long time, for all I know, before they lose their magnetic potentials and stop working.

 

Anyone agree?

Yes & no. You qualify by saying 'for all I know' which means you don't know. We only intend now to experiment & the 2 magnets is coming later. You mention friction, but that is accompanied by heat & I assure you I don't have the equipment to measure the heat of the magnets.

___We now want concrete observations on the scans. Knowing what is there, describe what you see. For example, in the 'roundy' shape pattern, I spy with my little eye, that all the pins have lined up in such a way that they all point to the same small area. Now someone else go. B)

 

PS As with all experiments, use the proper safety precautions; gloves, or glasses, etc.

[BEAKER]

Here's an old protoype that didn't work. I'll explain it later. - but I learned a few things from it.:naughty:

 

 

 

I'm not sure why I can't get this any bigger.

 

Click on it for larger image.

[Turtle]

Here's an old protoype that didn't work. I'll explain it later. - but I learned a few things from it.:naughty:

 

[ATTACH]365[/ATTACH]

 

I'm not sure why I can't get this any bigger.

 

Click on it for larger image.

Very cool Beaker! I see your craftsmanship. I bet your son could tell us how it works; lucky boy to have a dad like you. One of the Hypography screens proclaims 'Hypography;Science For Everyone'. I often forget that you & Irish & others have your children gathered round you when you log in here. What you started with this thread & what we have now going from it is science for everyone & that includes the children. This not a childish thing as the title implies; this is a child-like thing to say show me or, lets try it out.

___Please do describe your equipment as well as what you all & the kids 'see' from the scans of the pins.

Eye spy with my little i.:xx:

[BEAKER]

Please do describe ...what you all & the kids 'see' from the scans of the pins.

Eye spy with my little i.:xx:

The poles of the magnet are on the short sides, not on the face.:naughty: