Freethinker Posted April 24, 2004 Report Share Posted April 24, 2004 Originally posted by: TormodYet none of us claim that these experiences DO change time, only our perception of it's passage - or more precise, that it is possible to have experiences in which you find that events pass more slowly (or quicker, I'm sure) than usual. Sorry but I fail to see that your arguments cast any light on this matter other than telling us that the experiences were natural, which we all agree that they were. I was trying to differentiate between "experience" and "percieve". After review, I do not think it was valid. But that was why I threw it out there, so I could see if it stood. Plop! :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lindagarrette Posted April 24, 2004 Report Share Posted April 24, 2004 When I dropped acid, I perceived time very differently than when I was thinking clearly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted April 25, 2004 Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 Originally posted by: Tormod"In order to perceive time, one must percieve self. " Freethinker, that is a claim which I think requires some proof. It would seem emperically self evident. In order to "percieve time", one has to establish a relationship between two seperate instances. If two instances had nothing in common what so ever, then any time frame relationship between them would not be immediately evident. But if they shared a great deal of similarity in physical structure, with slight differences in, say, relative position, one could postulate a relative time differentiation. Any "perception" of a delta-time would be based on the special position of the aware agent that was "perceiving" it. The perception would be based on that agent's relative location. They would have to have an awarness of their location in order to have an awareness of the different yet related events they perceieved. If they have an awarness of "their" location, they have a self awareness. Thus in order for one to identify patterns that allow a perception of relative time, they have to have a relative time reference, which has to be themselves. Awarness of self as the reference point in order to percieve relative time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted April 25, 2004 Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 Originally posted by: rileyj"experienced in slow motion" is relative. There is nothing about time that allows one individual control over it's passing." if one was traveling close to the speed of light then time would move slower for that person compared to someone on earth. That is not doing anything about time, that is doing something about your special reference point. And the same is true no matter what speed, not just close to the speed of light, but any speed "closer". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted April 25, 2004 Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 Originally posted by: rileyjTim_lou, The original question was related to a flies PERCEPTION of time. I question whether a fly CAN "perceive" time. In order to perceive time, one must percieve self. this is wrong,in order to understand time one must percieve time. animals percieve time as we do they just dont know of it. This is self contradictory. One of the requirements for perception, for something to be "perceived", is being "aware of it", KNOWING it. If the agent does not KNOW something happened, then they did NOT perceive it. timing is very important when hunting or being hunted. theypercive the world as we do in their own way. how does the tiger know when to strick? he knows because he waits for the right moment. waiting requiers passing of time. therefore he know to wait, andknows when it is TIME to attack A weem a wepp a weem a wepp a weem a wepp.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted April 25, 2004 Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 Originally posted by: lindagarretteWhen I dropped acid, I perceived time very differently than when I was thinking clearly. Define thinking clearly! :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted April 25, 2004 Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 Originally posted by: TormodAs for insects and plants having a sense of self, here is some food for thought: It is a short essay on signs of perception of different kinds of self in animals and plants. Thx Tormod, great article. Being a quasi Skinnerian, I have little trouble with allowing the application of various levels of intellect to other species. Or perhaps more accurately, moving humans in their more appropriate place in the midst of the animal world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rileyj Posted April 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 "That is not doing anything about time, that is doing something about your special reference point." the twin paradox show show time can affect people differently. if a person controls their speed and as a result time as a changed effect on a person than you are effecting your time line Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rileyj Posted April 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 "And the same is true no matter what speed, not just close to the speed of light, but any speed "closer". " i know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted April 25, 2004 Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 Originally posted by: rileyj"That is not doing anything about time, that is doing something about your special reference point." the twin paradox show show time can affect people differently. Twins? perhaps thru ARTIFICIAL insemination? "Affect" is subjective, a personal opinion. That does not change the actuality of time as a fixed reference. A specific dimension. if a person controls their speed and as a result time as a changed effect on a person than you are effecting your time line all "people" have relative time. All people control theit speed. Time is fixed no matter what. Only our perception of it changes. And that is a personal, SPECIAL relationship which requires self awareness. Thus we circle back around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted April 25, 2004 Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 Originally posted by: rileyj"And the same is true no matter what speed, not just close to the speed of light, but any speed "closer". " i know Then you KNEW you incorrectly stated if one was traveling close to the speed of light Why then did you post it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rileyj Posted April 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 "This is self contradictory. One of the requirements for perception, for something to be "perceived", is being "aware of it", KNOWING it. If the agent does not KNOW something happened, then they did NOT perceive it." every living thing has a timeline where they know of it or not. they might not know that it is time but theypercieveit. whydo animals have biological clocks. they know when to wake sleep eat etc.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rileyj Posted April 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 "A weem a wepp a weem a wepp a weem a wepp.... " thats not an answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rileyj Posted April 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 "Twins? perhaps thru ARTIFICIAL insemination?" what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rileyj Posted April 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 "Then you KNEW you incorrectly stated " its called "giving an example" you dip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rileyj Posted April 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 PERCEPTION OF TIME DOES NOT REQUIRE SELF-AWARENESS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted April 25, 2004 Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 Originally posted by: rileyj"Twins? perhaps thru ARTIFICIAL insemination?" what? Woosh... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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