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  • 3 months later...
On 10/29/2020 at 8:21 PM, Anchovyforestbane said:

What would the microbiology of a torus-shaped microorganism look like? Under what circumstances, practical or hypothetical, might such an anatomy be useful, if such a circumstance exists?

Well a torus microorganism would be shaped like a torus, I have no idea under what circumstances that would be practical but I am sure you could genetically engineer a cell to be torus shaped and find out.

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If the volume of two objects are equal, a sphere will have the least amount of surface area.

Whether or not it would be beneficial to have a toroidal shape or not? Don't know. More surface in a torus for absorbing nutrients? Would a torus necessitate a nucleus that is consistent relative to the torus curve, so that it, too, would have to become a torus inside a torus? What might mitosis look like and where would chromosomes/nucleus be located? Would gravity select for orientation? Would small particles get stuck in the inner diameter? of a torus and shot off osmosis at cell surface contact points? And how would changing either of the two diameters of a torus affect any cytoplasmic homogeneity? Would traveling in a bloodstream by flipping end over end create issues within capillaries? Nature obviously spherical or elongated cells as being better so.

Ball's in your court, Anchovyforestbane ūüôā

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/19/2021 at 8:12 AM, Evolute said:

Would a torus necessitate a nucleus that is consistent relative to the torus curve, so that it, too, would have to become a torus inside a torus? What might mitosis look like and where would chromosomes/nucleus be located? 

As for the nucleus, I don't think the nucleoplasm would function nearly as proficiently enough if it were stretched into a torus, if that is even possible at all (which I doubt).
Rather, I suspect that it would have to have the cytonuclear and cytoskeletal systems similar to a xenophyophore, with different specialized nuclei and centrioles for certain locations. 

 

 

On 2/19/2021 at 8:12 AM, Evolute said:

Would small particles get stuck in the inner diameter? 

I suspect this could be fixed by modifying the digestive system. Perhaps a specialized glycocalyx or cilia of some kind lining the diametric lumen that, when stimulated, releases digestive enzymes. On the upward and downward curves from the lumen to the outer surface area, the osmotic sites would be located; such that the subparticulates from the digestion and any additional subparticulates in the environment are directly absorbed. In this situation, the microorganism would actually be specialized for environments where macroparticulates can easily get wedged into the diametric lumen. 
 

On 2/19/2021 at 8:12 AM, Evolute said:

Would traveling in a bloodstream by flipping end over end create issues within capillaries?

The anatomy I have in mind would be a bit too large for capillaries, which would likely cause some problems if it got into your bloodstream at all. 

 

 

On 2/19/2021 at 8:12 AM, Evolute said:

Nature obviously (indicates?) spherical or elongated cells as being better so.

I'm not saying it doesn't, I simply find it a fascinating topic.
What are your thoughts on my propositions so far? 

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In truth, I am impressed with you understanding of component systems and their functions. And while I can produce some logical questions or observation, I am in no way at the level that you are at. My interest lies more in evolutionary DNA mutation in how the Human brain advanced so far beyond the Great Apes. To each their own. But I did find your torus cell concept intriguing and so there were some considerations that I thought I could pass on to expand on the idea, or at least modestly try to expand my own knowledge. You have succeeded in pretty much leaving me in the dust although, conceptually, I was initially able to follow your line of thinking. Fun stuff. I saw written somewhere that if one stops learning they die and I'm certainly not ready to throw in the towel just yet ūüôā¬†

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49 minutes ago, Anchovyforestbane said:

As for the nucleus, I don't think the nucleoplasm would function nearly as proficiently enough if it were stretched into a torus, if that is even possible at all (which I doubt).
Rather, I suspect that it would have to have the cytonuclear and cytoskeletal systems similar to a xenophyophore, with different specialized nuclei and centrioles for certain locations. 

 

 

I suspect this could be fixed by modifying the digestive system. Perhaps a specialized glycocalyx or cilia of some kind lining the diametric lumen that, when stimulated, releases digestive enzymes. On the upward and downward curves from the lumen to the outer surface area, the osmotic sites would be located; such that the subparticulates from the digestion and any additional subparticulates in the environment are directly absorbed. In this situation, the microorganism would actually be specialized for environments where macroparticulates can easily get wedged into the diametric lumen. 
 

The anatomy I have in mind would be a bit too large for capillaries, which would likely cause some problems if it got into your bloodstream at all. 

 

 

I'm not saying it doesn't, I simply find it a fascinating topic.
What are your thoughts on my propositions so far? 

Genetically modify some cells with a synthetic protein that makes them torus shaped and find out, Honestly I do not know what would happen. This can be easily done by CRISPR(https://elifesciences.org/articles/51539) or Viral Vector(https://www.nature.com/articles/3301121). This article is about people that made a synthetic protein(https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/08/160809143608.htm).

Edited by VictorMedvil
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On 2/28/2021 at 8:41 AM, Evolute said:

My interest lies more in evolutionary DNA mutation in how the Human brain advanced so far beyond the Great Apes.

IMO, one can draw several conclusions from the aspects that set us apart from other Great Apes, rather than what we have in common, which basically doesn't tell us anything about evolution.

There is one major identifier what sets human apart from all other Apes and that is a single mutated chromosome. 

Human Chromosome 2 is a fusion of two ancestral chromosomes

Alec MacAndrew

Introduction

Quote

All great apes apart from man have 24 pairs of chromosomes. There is therefore a hypothesis that the common ancestor of all great apes had 24 pairs of chromosomes and that the fusion of two of the ancestor's chromosomes created chromosome 2 in humans. The evidence for this hypothesis is very strong.

http://www.evolutionpages.com/images/hum_ape_chrom_2.gif

Quote

Let us re-iterate what we find on human chromosome 2. Its centromere is at the same place as the chimpanzee chromosome 2p as determined by sequence similarity. Even more telling is the fact that on the 2q arm of the human chromosome 2 is the unmistakable remains of the original chromosome centromere of the common ancestor of human and chimp 2q chromosome, at the same position as the chimp 2q centromere (this structure in humans no longer acts as a centromere for chromosome 2.

Conclusion

Quote

The evidence that human chromosome 2 is a fusion of two of the common ancestor's chromosomes is overwhelming.

http://www.evolutionpages.com/chromosome_2.htm

I am convinced that the fusion of two ancestor chromosomes into one larger (more complex) human chromosomes is responsible for the increase in brain size and processing power. 

----------------------------

As to the question of a torus cell. Seems to me that most organisms are complex toruses.  Our digestive system is really a single continuous hole surrounded by tissue

Digestive System 

Quote

Animals, for the most part, ingest their food as large, complex molecules that must be broken down into smaller molecules (monomers) that can then be distributed throughout the body of every cell. This vital function is accpomplished by a series of specialized organs that comprise the digestive system. Representative digestive systems are shown in Figure 1.

http://www2.estrellamountain.edu/faculty/farabee/biobk/digest_1.gif

And evolved to: 

http://www2.estrellamountain.edu/faculty/farabee/biobk/digest_3.gif

There are two types of animal body plans as well as two locations for digestion to occur. Sac-like plans are found in many invertebrates, who have a single opening for food intake and the discharge of wastes. Vertebrates, the animal group humans belong to, use the more efficient tube-within-a-tube plan with food entering through one opening (the mouth) and wastes leaving through another (the anus).

http://www2.estrellamountain.edu/faculty/farabee/biobk/biobookdigest.html

Edited by write4u
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On 2/28/2021 at 9:14 AM, VictorMedvil said:

Genetically modify some cells with a synthetic protein that makes them torus shaped and find out, Honestly I do not know what would happen. This can be easily done by CRISPR(https://elifesciences.org/articles/51539) or Viral Vector(https://www.nature.com/articles/3301121). This article is about people that made a synthetic protein(https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/08/160809143608.htm).

Does this illustrate the concept of toroid shaped cells?

#rp from @illuminaticongo -  Our energy body is a similar shape as red blood cells. The Toroidal energy flow is one where the inner flows to the outer and the outer to the inner vortexing in a spiral perpetually. When we mimic this flow with our breath rhythms we come into greater harmony with our heart field and maximize our breathing. #tantrikrainbowbodybreathing #rebirthoftheneteru #breathinggod #illuminethenadis #illuminationthrurespiration #torus - #Muladhara #red #rootchakra

#rp from @illuminaticongo -

Quote

Our energy body is a similar shape as red blood cells. The Toroidal energy flow is one where the inner flows to the outer and the outer to the inner vortexing in a spiral perpetually. When we mimic this flow with our breath rhythms we come into greater harmony with our heart field and maximize our breathing.

 

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Nice post with some good analytics. But with all due respect, Human chromosome fusion of the Ape's 2a and 2b centromeres notwithstanding, I have to stay with the Notch2NL genetic mutations found in Homo being the reason for Human brain size and cognitive functions. Rather than derail this thread I would refer you back to the Humans from Apes thread that you posted on a short time back. And since chromosome one is where the Notch2NL genes are located, the fusion of chromosome 2 wouldn't appear to be the culprit. There's more to this, of course but not for here would be better.

More on topic here, though, there's no question that toroidal systems and mechanisms do exist in Humans and in Nature, but the OP was about cells that have toriodal shapes. Being essentially a doughnut-like, flatter shape more than spherical or ovoid. Good brain teaser ūüôā

Edited by Evolute
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