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Evolution's constituency


infamous

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Okay, I'm not attacking evolution exactly, I do say that I don't totally believe in it.

This discussion is about evolution Edge, not about Intelligent Design. As a matter of information for you and others, I personally believe in both. So I'm not attacking you either when I ask; Please keep this discussion on track. I found this link interesting Edge but I suspect that it is more of a defense in support of ID than anything else. From my point of view, one needs not attack evolution to prove ID. I think this is a great mistake and each one should be judged on the merits of it's own value. Attacking one to prove the other is not going to get us anywhere.
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This discussion is about evolution Edge, not about Intelligent Design. As a matter of information for you and others, I personally believe in both. So I'm not attacking you either when I ask; Please keep this discussion on track. I found this link interesting Edge but I suspect that it is more of a defense in support of ID than anything else. From my point of view, one needs not attack evolution to prove ID. I think this is a great mistake and each one should be judged on the merits of it's own value. Attacking one to prove the other is not going to get us anywhere.

You are correct. Sorry about that.

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Hi! infamous :hyper:

 

Evolution, I think of it as a “tool” or "factor", used to change, modify, alter, etc, the original design of creation or the computer’s program to do something different.

 

But, what I don’t understand is, how could anything influence evolution, when evolution is the "key" factor that does the influencing?

 

:hyper:

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Hi! infamous :hyper:

 

Evolution, I think of it as a “tool” or "factor", used to change, modify, alter, etc, the original design of creation or the computer’s program to do something different.

 

But, what I don’t understand is, how could anything influence evolution, when evolution is the "key" factor that does the influencing?

 

:hyper:

If you haven't already done so Guadalupe, read post #50 of this thread , it goes into a brief explanation for a few of the influencing factors. Remember that evolution is only the name given to a process whereby change takes place resulting from external influences. Many things can cause these changes to take place and describing evolution as the cause is putting the cart before the horse. Survival of the fittest is just one of many factors that I could mention which influence the evolutionary process. At the beginning of this thread I spell out what I believe to be the major influences on the evolutionary process.
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If you haven't already done so Guadalupe, read post #50 of this thread , it goes into a brief explanation for a few of the influencing factors. Remember that evolution is only the name given to a process whereby change takes place resulting from external influences. Many things can cause these changes to take place and describing evolution as the cause is putting the cart before the horse. Survival of the fittest is just one of many factors that I could mention which influence the evolutionary process. At the beginning of this thread I spell out what I believe to be the major influences on the evolutionary process.

 

Ahhhh! “Evolution Process”! Now, I see the connection. Thanks infamous for taking the time in shedding some light on the subject matter. :hyper:

 

:hyper:

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...

Equilibrium: ..reactions seek will find it's way to completion...

Life force: ... the influence that another organism might have on the evolution of said species

Complexity:.....if it can happen, it will...

Gravity:.....will influence developemental evolution.

Entropy: ...has built into it's character the essence of direction.

 

Hey, Infy- Long time no talk, er, post.

 

This is a pretty interesting domain of thought. I read all of the previous posts, and I would like to suggest a modification to your model.

 

It seems to me that you have mixed root cause (entropy) with a subset of root cause characteristics (gravity) and a couple of derived states (equilibrium, complexity, life force).

 

If we were to stand out side of the universe for a moment and imagine looking at the change in state of the universe from first cause (e.g., big bang) to end game, we would expect to see:

 

1) A initial state of maximum entropy

2) A set of initial characteristics (forces, including gravity, and concentration of mass) manifested in a highly non-equilibrated singularity (or something close, insde the size of a planck-length)

3) A gradual loss of entropy resulting in a gradual equilibration of all forces (including life forces) and mass

4) At any point along the way we can characterixe the degree of local disequilibrium by its degree of local complexity, until

5) We end up at maximum entropy, where the universe is in final equilibrium at uniform temperature, uniform mass distribution and minimal complexity, perhaps zero. Complexity is minimized in any volume of space when entropy is maximized.

 

On the way to number 4) above, we have interim states where local entropy might increase, even though average entropy across the universe is decreasing. That is, we have lumps in the gravy until it is successfully mixed up (had to have a Thanksgiving analogy, given the impending mass consumption of turkey in the US).

 

Evolution in this larger context is a temporary disequilibrium moving toward local equilibrium moving toward intergalactic equilibrium. Evolution is a pocket of increasing compleity in an environment of overall average decreasing complexity.

 

Hence, even though we are going to end up as cold uniform space dust, we are warm organized love machines in the interim. Evolution is just a lump in the gravy.

 

Personally, I want to be a giblet.

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Hence, even though we are going to end up as cold uniform space dust, we are warm organized love machines in the interim. Evolution is just a lump in the gravy.

 

Personally, I want to be a giblet.

I'm pleased to see that you have investigated this thread and also appreciate your intelligent commentary. It's good to hear from you again Bio. and I'm also glad to see some humor seeping out of your very serious minded pores. With a humorous note myself, I'm rather fond of lumpy gravy. Never-the-less on the serious side Bio., do you get a feeling about where I'm going with this? These lumps, if you prefer to call them that, are the result of interactions between these five influences. Whether one believes in micro or macro evolution, these five influences determine the shape and size of the lump..............Infy
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...Bio., do you get a feeling about where I'm going with this? These lumps, if you prefer to call them that, are the result of interactions between these five influences. Whether one believes in micro or macro evolution, these five influences determine the shape and size of the lump..............Infy
Well, Inf, I was trying to generalize your model a bit.

 

At the risk of sounding like a determinist (whcih I am not, as you know) any state of nature is the resultant of three things: 1) our initial state, 2) the extant forces, and 3) time. In this case, entropy could be substituted for time, since over time, we maximize entropy.

 

I would not pick gravity as a force that is more significant that strong, weak, electromagnetic or any other force that we may decide exists. Similarly, I think "life force" is just a specific aggregation of other more basic forces.

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Well, Inf, I was trying to generalize your model a bit.

 

At the risk of sounding like a determinist (whcih I am not, as you know) any state of nature is the resultant of three things: 1) our initial state, 2) the extant forces, and 3) time. In this case, entropy could be substituted for time, since over time, we maximize entropy.

 

I would not pick gravity as a force that is more significant that strong, weak, electromagnetic or any other force that we may decide exists.

Very true Bio; The reason that I give any significance to gravity is it's universal effect. And consider the following situation for a moment. On a planet with twice the gravity of earth, the evolutionary process would no doubt require that life forms of significant size would be by neccessity more robust in structure.

 

Similarly, I think "life force" is just a specific aggregation of other more basic forces.
In many respects, all these influences are part of a greater aggregation. Let me explain; Science has been consumed with the quest to unify all the physical forces of nature for many years now. They believe as I do, that there lies beneath the fabric a oneness, a unity of sorts which we still don't have all the answers for. So yes, the life force is certainly a composite, and this unity which science seeks would also be. But supporting free will as you do, don't you think that the mind and will of man can certainly have a dramatic effect on not only it's destiny, but on everything humankind comes in contact with. I therefore submit that the life force we define as our will was and is becoming an even greater manipulator of the evolutionary process.

 

After spending some time thinking about the point you're making here, I think it best to change Life force to: The Intelligent will. I agree that the term Life force is just too vague and must be refined. I've chosen The Intelligent will because, lesser forms of life have a marginal evolutionary effect on their enviornment while intelligent life forms such as man have the ability to make huge changes in not only the destiny of themselves but also the entire planet. So from here further, I will define this influence as The Intelligent Will..................Infy

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...But supporting free will as you do, don't you think that the mind and will of man can certainly have a dramatic effect on not only it's destiny, but on everything humankind comes in contact with. ...
Sure.

 

I was just trying to avoid the (potentially inevitable) migration of this discussion into a debate about determinism versus free will. Deterministically, we are only the resultant of promordial cause and effect. You and I (and a couple others here) contend that there are other forces that impact much of our lives.

 

Some of those forces are pretty tough to confirm by the scientific method.

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Sure.

 

I was just trying to avoid the (potentially inevitable) migration of this discussion into a debate about determinism versus free will. Deterministically, we are only the resultant of promordial cause and effect. You and I (and a couple others here) contend that there are other forces that impact much of our lives.

 

Some of those forces are pretty tough to confirm by the scientific method.

Absolutely Bio. I would applaud your efforts along that line also. I think your point about the Life force is a good one so I chosen to redefine this more perfectly as: The Intelligent Will . Even though this can also be defined as a composite, it has a much narrower focus. I rationalize this because man is the only creature in possession of such a high degree of this attribute currently residing on this planet. This Intelligent Will has the ability to make or break every form of life that exists on earth and will certainly influence future evolution.
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INFY, does your intelligent will exist as the result of the human thought process ? my definition of the life force is that force which resides in live cells and gives them the ability to think and carry on other metabolic functions peculiar to each cell group. this would underly and be neccessary for the intelligent will, would it not ? is will contained in each cell, or is it only created by thought ? the life force resides in every cell and may share in the same intellignce found in the dna mechanism or even influence it. this could lead to a discussion of ancient influences on thought and culture from replication of dna through ethnically pure societies.

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INFY, does your intelligent will exist as the result of the human thought process ? .
My answer to that question would naturally be of course, but I'm sure it exists to a lesser degree in many other species as well. It really boils down to the degree by which humans can influence another species and visa versa. One notable influence which we humans are responsible for, occuring as we speak; destruction of the rain forests in South America. How far reaching will this human initiative influence not only the life indigenous to the region, but also our own future evolution??
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