What Is Consciousness?

[Thoth101]

The Nazi's are long since dead and they never discovered such a thing in the pre-atomic era, that would be like saying, "Why didn't cavemen have tanks, maybe they had tanks."

Or the same as given a zombie virus to an entity that didn't exist. :lol:

 

Maybe the Nazi's made it to Mars and have been working on the virus and dropped it over the Earth's atmosphere. :lol:

[Vmedvil2]

WTF the last page of this thread has to so with consciousness I have no idea, I found a 6 sigma proof of non local consciousness I was going to post, but since it is clear no one else is interested I will just **** off, and post it else where. I resign

Okay Flummoxed, what did you want to talk about?

[Thoth101]

WTF the last page of this thread has to so with consciousness I have no idea, I found a 6 sigma proof of non local consciousness I was going to post, but since it is clear no one else is interested I will just **** off, and post it else where. I resign

I have plenty on consciousness.

[Thoth101]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3ivOXuFfUA

[Thoth101]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRSBaq3vAeY

[Thoth101]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK71M6C_RUg

[Thoth101]

Looking at the comments from this first link, and listening to the first 30 seconds. I am not going to look at hours of pseudo science BS. 

 

Is there any proven research behind the hours of links you have posted or is it all complete rubbish like the link above?

 

This is meant to be a science forum, do you have any links backed by science ?

Those were links from college talks. That is why I posted them for you because I assumed you would find them more truthful coming from colleges. But I guess not.lol!

 

And not sure if you figured this out by now but most of science says once you are dead you are dead. So you are not going to find much science involved with the research of consciousness. The best you will get is from Quantum Physics. Your either going to have to go with the once your dead your dead theory or you will have to look at other research besides your typical science. Maybe the study of consciousness is just not for you.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Thoth101

[Thoth101]

Looking at the comments from this first link, and listening to the first 30 seconds. I am not going to look at hours of pseudo science BS. 

 

Is there any proven research behind the hours of links you have posted or is it all complete rubbish like the link above?

 

This is meant to be a science forum, do you have any links backed by science ?

World's Smartest Physicist Thinks Science Can't Crack Consciousness

 

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/world-s-smartest-physicist-thinks-science-can-t-crack-consciousness/

Some mind-ponderers, notably philosopher Colin McGinn, argue that consciousness is unsolvable. Philosopher Owen Flanagan calls these pessimists “mysterians,” after the 60’s-era rock group “Question Mark and the Mysterians.”

 

Recently, physicist Edward Witten came out as a mysterian. Witten is regarded with awe by his fellow physicists, some of whom have compared him to Einstein and Newton. He is largely responsible for the popularity of string theory over the past several decades. String theory holds that all of nature's forces stem from infinitesimal particles wriggling in a hyperspace consisting of many extra dimensions.

 

Witten is optimistic about science’s power to solve mysteries, such as why there is something rather than nothing. In a 2014 Q&A with me he said: “The modern scientific endeavor has been going on for hundreds of years by now, and we've gotten way farther than our predecessors probably imagined.” He also reaffirmed his belief that string theory will turn out to be “right.”

 

But in a fascinating video interview with journalist Wim Kayzer, Witten is pessimistic about the prospects for a scientific explanation of consciousness. The chemist Ash Jogalekar, who blogs as “The Curious Wavefunction,” wrote about Witten’s speech and transcribed the relevant section. (Thanks, Ash.) Here is an excerpt:

 

I think consciousness will remain a mystery. Yes, that's what I tend to believe. I tend to think that the workings of the conscious brain will be elucidated to a large extent. Biologists and perhaps physicists will understand much better how the brain works. But why something that we call consciousness goes with those workings, I think that will remain mysterious. I have a much easier time imagining how we understand the Big Bang than I have imagining how we can understand consciousness...

[Thoth101]

Those are fringe views, which are interesting when backed up by science, rather than mysticism. 

 

"The prevailing consensus in neuroscience is that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain and its metabolism. When the brain dies, the mind and consciousness of the being to whom that brain belonged ceases to exist. In other words, without a brain there can be no consciousness."

 

The consciousness is the ability to sense, and the mind is what you learn through life experiences. We are all able to sense through our senses, and learn. What the fringe views appear to be trying to do is support a particular religious belief or additional senses.

 

As I think everyone would agree proof of consciousness outside the brain is on shaky ground, but might be more probable than the great god teapot flying around the sun. 

 

Various pseudo science links have been posted supporting reincarnation, of what people that would appear to retain memories. Which would mean the mind and consciousness is reincarnated.

 

What strikes me as interesting is ORCH-OR theory by Roger Penrose(an atheist) and Stuart Hamerhoff(spiritualist neuroscientist) This is a review https://arxiv.org/pdf/1910.08423.pdf I know 42 pages discussing the subject is too much for most to glance at. This is claimed to be the only complete theory on consciousness. It is partly based on quantum effects in the brain. ie the brain works a bit like a quantum computer, A bit of easy reading on ORCH-OR by Penrose http://nautil.us/issue/47/consciousness/roger-penrose-on-why-consciousness-does-not-compute

 

Proof of theories on consciousness exist. Depending on how the tests are done, the following (pseudo ??) scientific (??) link claims 6 sigma proof of consciousness located external to the body https://www.researchgate.net/publication/235773843_Crossing_the_Threshold_Non_local_Consciousness_and_the_Burden_of_Proof

(I havent checked the sources in this link)

 

Meaning of sigma https://www.physicscentral.com/buzz/blog/index.cfm?postid=5248358123737529836 just in case you didnt notice the reference. 

 

At the end of the day proof is required. Wrong theories can be disproved easily. ORCH-OR appears a bit different, it might not "even be wrong" it might just be unprovable, or partly right. 

All good points but you won't get proof from your mainstream science. They tend not to study consciousness. As I have stated before you will get the ultimate proof once you die. There will be no denying the fact there. In the world we live in right now it is about control. If people knew that they lived forever religion, science and governments would lose most power. So chance of science showing you that you live forever are null and void. Your just going to have to see for yourself once you get there. I don't have the ultimate proof but I promise you once you leave your body you will still be conscious. You can take that to the grave or wait for all the proof you want but I assure you. But you don't have to believe me and I don't expect you to. Keep relying on science to tell you what you already know deep down inside. If the ultimate proof is ever shown It will be Quantum Physics not Bill Nye the science guy who evolved from Apes. :lol:

[Thoth101]

You did not read the links you are commenting on, or perhaps you wouldnt have written what you have.

 

At least try and read this one https://www.research...Burden_of_Proof You especially might find it interesting, if you understand what the author is getting at. I posted it in response to Victors earlier request, and a frail attempt to support your view point, for devilment.  :shocked:

 

When arguing for or against a subject it is amusing to argue both sides of the argument, even when the "The prevailing consensus in neuroscience is that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain and its metabolism. When the brain dies, the mind and consciousness of the being to whom that brain belonged ceases to exist. In other words, without a brain there can be no consciousness."

I did read the first one the PDF which just about put me to sleep. It was interesting but just so dry and not very easy to tell what they are trying to say. I like it in laymen's terms. The other ones were blocked so I couldn't read them at work. I wish I could have but couldn't. I mean yes most science does believe without a brain there is no consciousness. That is obvious most say once you are dead you are dead. I have to disagree with that and say consciousness does not need a brain to exist and always exists. Our consciousness comes down onto this 3d world to experience a human body. Some say we exist in a matrix, simulation, hologram, or virtually programmed reality that we believe is real because our brains tell us it is.

 

Is Our Universe a Hologram?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/video/is-our-universe-a-hologram-video/

 

The Hippies Were Right: It's All about Vibrations, Man!

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-hippies-were-right-its-all-about-vibrations-man/

 

Fast forward to the present era and we can ask ourselves now: Did the hippies actually solve this problem? My colleague Jonathan Schooler of the University of California, Santa Barbara, and I think they effectively did, with the radical intuition that it’s all about vibrations … man. Over the past decade, we have developed a “resonance theory of consciousness” that suggests that resonance—another word for synchronized vibrations—is at the heart of not only human consciousness but of physical reality more generally.

 

So how were the hippies right? Well, we agree that vibrations, resonance, are the key mechanism behind human consciousness, as well as animal consciousness more generally. And, as I’ll discuss below, that they are the basic mechanism for all physical interactions to occur.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Thoth101

[Thoth101]

The link I posted is mostly more interesting and technical than yours(there is a claimed bit I think is dodgy). Non Locality and degrees of entanglement are mentioned. Your Holographic explanation is basic, but is ok. 

 

A claimed clear correlation has been experimentally proven via magnetic resonance imaging of peoples brains that can only be explained by a non local connection. 

Other claims are made but then not backed up! I will do some more digging to amuse myself!

 

Yes Alpha Beta and Gamma waves are involved, at varying frequencies depending on subject. (Maybe the hippies were in part correct)

 

The following link is interesting to me in support of ORCH_OR theory (maybe) https://www.pnas.org/content/107/29/12766  long lived quantum coherence at psychological temperatures. 

 

The PDF was very technical for sure. I will have to read it a few times to wrap I head around it. :lol:

 

Well I am glad you enjoyed the links I posted. I also do yours. I can read any PDF while at work.

 

I grew up in a very odd setting where my dad is an atheist and says "once your dead your dead". And he says it until this day even with my debating him. And my mom is a Christian who thinks everyone needs Jesus to go to a heaven. I debate her on that and she don't listen to me either. I really don't know how they get along till this day. But it just goes to show you it is very hard to change anybody's mind on anything. Even if you have evidence. I think people are just going to believe what they are going to believe and create their own reality.

 

I think their is something to that because looking at near death experiences. Which I have read a few books on. If you believe in a Jesus you will see Jesus. If you believe in Krishna you will see Krishna and even Satanist will see Satan and on and on. People that don't follow religion usually see family members to guide them. So there maybe something else for you to consider. Do a little study on near death experiencers and read a few books on it for another perspective.

 

Also I can open that last link you sent. I will give it a read tomorrow.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Thoth101

[Thoth101]

That sounds like hallucinations https://www.livescience.com/11010-death-experiences-linked-oxygen-deprivation.html . I used to dive, occasionally down to 40metres, oxygen deprivation or narcosis definitely gives you a high. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_narcosis

I am not sure what kind of hallucinations you can have when your heart stops and you are declared dead for awhile. There have been many near death experiencers where they came out of their body and could see what the doctors were doing and saying.

 

So from what you gathered for yourself so far in your own opinion what do you think happens after you die?

 

Reality is a consciousness hologram set in linear time to experience and study human emotions. Consciousness moves from one reality to another - from physical (slow) to higher consciousness (faster frequency of thought) during out-of-body experiences, meditations, and dreams, in times of trauma and shock, sometimes remembering what they encountered, but other times unable to retrieve the information because it cannot be processed on understood at the physical level of conscious awareness. The light that people see if the source of consciousness creation for everything in our reality.

 

Many people report meeting a deceased loved one or heavenly being, coming to a precipice or place where a decision about life or death must take place. They often witness their life passing before their eyes (their grid experiences), total consciousness, and a feeling of timelessness.

 

Upon awakening, the near-death experiencer may return with a different perspective on their life gained from moving into higher frequency especially today when consciousness is accelerating to closure. Many believe that have returned because they have been chosen to do something spiritual to heal and help the planet and others.

 

Some people remember their near-death experiences while others have some vague memories of being out of body. This is similar to dreamtime wherein some people wake up and remember events on the other side - while others have no memories. It is all about the movement of consciousness in and out of different frequencies of reality - or grids of consciousness.

 

A near-death experience (NDE) refers to a broad range of personal experiences associated with impending death, encompassing multiple possible sensations including detachment from the body; feelings of levitation; extreme fear; total serenity, security, or warmth; the experience of absolute dissolution; and the presence of a light.

 

These phenomena are usually reported after an individual has been pronounced clinically dead or otherwise very close to death, hence the term near-death experience. Many NDE reports, however, originate from events that are not life-threatening. With recent developments in cardiac resuscitation techniques, the number of reported NDEs has increased. Many in the scientific community regard such experiences as hallucinatory,while paranormal specialists and some mainstream scientists regard them to be evidence of an afterlife.

 

Popular interest in near-death experiences was initially sparked by Raymond Moody's 1975 book Life After Life and the founding of the International Association for Near-Death Studies (IANDS) in 1981.

 

According to a Gallup poll, approximately eight million Americans claim to have had a near-death experience. Some commentators, such as Simpson, claim that the number of near-death experiencers may be underestimated. People who have had a near-death experience may not be comfortable discussing the experience with others, especially when the NDE is understood as a paranormal incident.

 

NDEs are among the phenomena studied in the fields of parapsychology, psychology, psychiatry, and hospital medicine.

 

Read More:

https://www.crystalinks.com/nde.html

Edited April 13, 2020 by Thoth101

[Thoth101]

That sounds like hallucinations https://www.livescience.com/11010-death-experiences-linked-oxygen-deprivation.html . I used to dive, occasionally down to 40metres, oxygen deprivation or narcosis definitely gives you a high. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_narcosis

For the link that you posted https://www.pnas.org/content/107/29/12766

 

Can you explain in laymen's terms in what that is trying to say? I read it and I really can't pinpoint what the meaning behind it is. It's above my pay grade. :lol:

[Thoth101]

The brain and senses do not die immediately when your heart stops. They slowly die, due in part to oxygen starvation and fade out of consciousness. Dreams happen when you are sleeping. 

 

Narcosis when diving can be exactly like "being out of body"  OR " like a dreamtime" from which you wake up when you ascend a few metres. If you keep going down you might not wake up. It is all about control and awareness of what is happening to your oxygen levels to maintain safe levels of consciousness. 

 

The concept of separating consciousness from mind, in various religions is, I think, wrong.

 

Dementia as some people age, is all part of a failing brain. IF in the slim chance that anything at the quantum level persists after death, bearing in mind the fragile state of entanglement or degrees there of. To be reborn with memories of past lives, assuming mind and consciousness are one and the same, it would have to be a quick reincarnation to maintain any level of memories or past personality, failing that take you time and forget who you were and be reincarnated as a goat or something else perhaps.

 

After you are dead with all mental activity stopped. I would have to go with an old memory of something I might have read somewhere, and be rapidly reincarnated. Failing that my existence/consciousness will just have to fade away and become a distant memory for people left behind.

 

What we do in this life definitely echoes on into the future (maybe even future lives ). Who wants to die to find out. 

 

 

I have spoken to some people who claim to have been reincarnated, one guy even had a daughter die, who he claimed walked up to him a few years later in another body and said hello daddy, I just wanted to let you know im ok, Im living with this family now. SPOOKY 

 

The concept of consciousness out side the body is not new. From this point of view ORCH_OR theory intrigues me.

 

 

The concept of separating consciousness from mind, in various religions is wrong,  

So you believe once you are dead you are dead? Or you just believe memories live on not an actual consciousness?

[Thoth101]

The key point of the paper is " Here we present evidence that quantum coherence survives in FMO at physiological temperature for at least 300 fs, long enough to impact biological energy transport. These data prove that the wave-like energy transfer process discovered at 77 K is directly relevant to biological function."

That above supports the ORCH-OR theory.  

Ok for those of us less in the know of quantum technical terms what is quantum coherence? What is FMO? What is physiological temperature? What is the ORCH-OR theory? Most people don't know these terms. It would be like me knowing military acronyms trying to explain to you something in military acronyms or codes.

[Thoth101]

I have an open mind, except ones your bodies dead, you are dead. Anything that might exist in the future is not you. You would have a clean slate.

So are you saying everything Hitler did there will be no consequences for that soul or spirit or even any kind of karma? I can understand your thinking on it but do you think it is possible that whatever you do in this lifetime means absolutely nothing? That just don't makes sense to me. I am not saying a heaven or hell but a kind of karma or a balancing out. For example such as Hitler might have to live a lifetime of being tortured and murdered to bring the balance back.

 

Karma is about the wheels or gears of time and synchronicity bringing everything into balance. There is an expression, "What goes around, comes around." It's about balance at the end of this consciousness hologram. Karma is not about retribution, vengeance, punishment or reward; karma simply deals with what is. The effects of all deeds actively create past, present and future experiences, thus making one responsible for one's own life, and the pain and joy it brings to others.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Thoth101

[Thoth101]

I know you can use wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coherence_(physics) My understanding is that Quantum Coherence and Quantum entanglement are two sides of the same coin https://phys.org/news/2015-06-physicists-quantum-coherence-entanglement-sides.html ie they are equivalent. Particles in phase or entangled decohere when they lose entanglement. By analogy for amusement maybe marching troups could be described as cohered and decohered when they lose step :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenna-Matthews-Olson_complex FMO is an abbreviation for Fenna, Mathews and Olson a bit like the EPR Einstein Polosky and Rosenstein. The EPR = ER conjecture, is interesting, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ER%3DEPR in part this supports the holographic principle :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_body_temperature is your physiological temperature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reduction Orchestrated Obective Reduction Orch-Or

 

Most people on science forums would know what the body temperature is, even the military :)

 

If you check the previous page I posted a load of stuff on the ORCH_OR theory, and a bunch of other stuff supporting it, with counter arguments as well. One of the counter arguments was that entanglement couldnt happen at body temperature, the above paper you are referring to concludes this is wrong. Entanglement can happen at body temperature for very short periods of time, long enough for the ORCH-OR theory still to be a viable theory. ie the argument against it was quashed, according to the above paper. 

 

 

 

 

What we do in this life ripples through to the future.

Punishment after death is a Religious idea.

Hitler got of without punishment because he committed suicide and avoided all the war crimes he might have faced, due to losing the war.   

 

Edit The balance is now Germany is not a military power and spends its research money on none military projects, resulting in it now being a financial power house in Europe. The Germans may have lost the war but they might have conquered Europe financially.  They also have the lowest  Covid-19 death rate possibly due to having a scientist as their leader rather than a political idiot.

Thanks for all that. Well 6 years in the military and I never heard of body temperature being called  physiological temperature. Maybe they do these things to confuse the populace that don't understand this "scientific jargon". :pardon:

 

Karma is not punishment. Are we to say that everything that is said in religion is wrong? I think Karma is pretty valid. There are truths to all religions and there are lots of dogmas just the same in science. Karma as an inherent principle of the universe without the intervention of any supernatural Being. It's really a law of the Universe.

 

We don't really know what happened to Hitler. You can only guess and have an opinion on it. I am sure he will not be having a very good lifetime though in one of his lifetimes until the balance is brought back. Then again I guess you could ask the question. Yea he was in charge but did he himself actually do the killing? Was he smart enough to bypass the Karma and have it go on the others below him that did his dirty work? Do the soldiers that kill other soldiers in  a war get the karma along with the leaders? For example would Bush have gotten any Karma for all the Iraqis that were murdered during the Iraq War? It does open up a lot of possibilities and maybe it is just easier to believe that once you are dead you are dead and that is IT, and there was never no meaning to all of this.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Thoth101