Queso Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 no thanks. i'm pretty sure i was specific enough. you are just leading me into a trap of pointless argueing. nice try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazer2000x Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 I usually write too long posts anyway. But I definitely should have put those things a little different. Do not think of it as fact, think of it as a description of the Biblical God, whether you believe He is real or not, now you know what you are or are not believing in. Is that better? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazer2000x Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 you are just leading me into a trap of pointless argueing. nice try.You seem to be at least a little smarter than some of the people hear. But I never think of myself as leeding people into argument traps, just opening the room for an opposing discussion. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 Which answer first? God is the stain left in underwear when you do not wipe properly. And I can show proof that god exists. Should I post it? One of the biggest problems when trying to enter into a logical discussion with a god beleiver is getting a defintion of what this god is to them. Often we hear, as we do here, that it is the god of the bible. (prominent answer in the US) Yet various cults that are all based on the bible have been klling wach other for millenia because they can't agree amoungst themselves what this rambling, contradictory and error prone book says. How then can one even begin an intellectually honest discussion when the one claiming a god's existance can't figure out for themselves what they are claiming to exist? As an Atheist therefore the most accurate reply I can give is that I have yet to be shown ANY support for ANY of the god myths that have been presented to me. They all fail for similar reasons. The same reasons a beleiver in one god would give to reject the thousands (millions?) of god(esses)s others beleive in. So the best I can come up with as a short answer. God is the most succesful reason for killing others and destroying the earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazer2000x Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 Well, all of the recorded out-of-body experiences are of the Biblical God. Including those of other religions and athiests like yourself. That has to mean something. Doesn't it? You don't always have to be a Christian or a Catholic or even believe in any kind of God at all for Him to save you. Some of the strories I found are pretty freaky and scary. I had posted three earlier, but they dissapeared. I'm not sure why. Maybe I'll post them again sometime... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niviene Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 What? Define "out of body" experience, and prove it was "of the Biblical God"... You have to be a believer in God to feel that something happened due to God, so why would any atheist, as you imply it here, claim to have had an out of body experience due to God? This post has zero logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biochemist Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 ...How then can one even begin an intellectually honest discussion when the one claiming a god's existance can't figure out for themselves what they are claiming to exist?...Do you accept quantum mechanics? niviene 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erasmus00 Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 Well, all of the recorded out-of-body experiences are of the Biblical God. Including those of other religions and athiests like yourself. That has to mean something. Doesn't it? Thats 100% false. In fact, most of the recorded out of body experiences are from meditating monks of the buddhist/hindu tradition. Here is a rather silly link, but it is at least informative, http://www.oberf.org/ -Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erasmus00 Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 Do you accept quantum mechanics? Quantum mechanics has quite precise deffinitions. They just don't translate from math into words very well. God on the other hand is a much harder thing to define at all, which I think was his point. -Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazer2000x Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 Thats 100% false. In fact, most of the recorded out of body experiences are from meditating monks of the buddhist/hindu tradition. Here is a rather silly link, but it is at least informative, http://www.oberf.org/ -Will Not what I meant. Those could easily be illusions or even lies. By recorded out-of-body experiences I meant ones that have been recorded to have happened by doctors through patients who can recall details from points when there was no blood flow to there brain so it could not collect or store information. I believe these are the only ones that can constitute by science as being something out of the ordinary. I read just a few of the so called out of body experiences on that website and they are comepletely rediculous, you can just send them a lie and they can never prove that you lied. Some of them are common feelings for people who have suffered from lack of sleep or fatigue. There's nothing logically mystical about something in the realms of science, or something that could be a fictional account. Only if there was no way they could have made it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erasmus00 Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 Not what I meant. Those could easily be illusions or even lies. By recorded out-of-body experiences I meant ones that have been recorded to have happened by doctors through patients who can recall details from points when there was no blood flow to there brain so it could not collect or store information. I believe these are the only ones that can constitute by science as being something out of the ordinary. I read just a few of the so called out of body experiences on that website and they are comepletely rediculous, you can just send them a lie and they can never prove that you lied. I agree, its a silly website, as I already said. I was just trying to show you nonchristian out of body experiences. Also, anyone who has ever seen an MRI of a meditating monk can tell you something "out of the ordinary" is going on. As to the near death experiences you talk of, what is common to all of those is not the biblical god, but in fact, a white tunnel. I think a white tunnel could be used to support ANY religion, not simply the christian one. -Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazer2000x Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 I suppose that's true. But not ALL of them were a white tunnel. While most people have a heavenly vision like that, there are others that have a much more... "horrific" experience. I read some more of the things (I was clicking on random experiences) and even some of those were of God. Anyway, there is a miracle that I want to post. It is quite strange, and there is another just as strange, perhaps I'll post it later on. A small five year old was brought up in an athiest household. She had never heard of Jesus and rarely heard of God. One night her parents got into a fight, and the dad killed the mom, and then killed himself. The little girl saw it all. She got sent to a foster home, and her foster mother was a christian and sent her to sunday school. She told the sunday school teacher to go easy on her, because she had never heard of Jesus before. The teacher held up a picture of Jesus and asked, does anybody know who this is? The little girl waived her hand and said "I do! I do! That's the man that was holding me the night my parents died." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erasmus00 Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 A small five year old was brought up in an athiest household. She had never heard of Jesus and rarely heard of God. One night her parents got into a fight, and the dad killed the mom, and then killed himself. The little girl saw it all. She got sent to a foster home, and her foster mother was a christian and sent her to sunday school. She told the sunday school teacher to go easy on her, because she had never heard of Jesus before. The teacher held up a picture of Jesus and asked, does anybody know who this is? The little girl waived her hand and said "I do! I do! That's the man that was holding me the night my parents died." How do I know that actually happened? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Where did this happen? When did it happen? etc, etc. This is a science forum, after all. -Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skippy Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 But..these primitive people had no knowledge of physics, gravity, GR, or protons and only perceived what they could understand.You cannot be serious. Pythagorus - 582-507 BC; Socrates - 469-399 BC; Plato - 427-347 BC; Archimedes - 287-212 BC; Egyptians, Greeks, Babylonians and Hindus were doing Algebra as far back as 1800 BC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazer2000x Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 How do I know that actually happened? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Where did this happen? When did it happen? etc, etc. This is a science forum, after all. -Will Yes, well, I have posted numerous other things similar to this that I know to have happened because I was there. In this case I'll admit that it may have been made up, though I don't see why anyone would do it. Please to be explaining the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biochemist Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 Quantum mechanics has quite precise deffinitions. They just don't translate from math into words very well. God on the other hand is a much harder thing to define at all, which I think was his point...Sure. But FrT is using the fact that: 1) there are open issues on the topic2) there is substantial disagreement on core issues3) Intelligent,informed people disagree on the interpretation of many of the facts to suggest that theism is not intellectially coherent. All of the above apply to quantum theory (and or M theory) which he readily accepts. He also uses a recurring dodge that because some people are not coherent about theism, then no one is. There are several intellectually valid proofs for the existence of God. They are not scientific method proofs. Frt is (I suspect) fully aware of these. To discharge them as invalid becasue some people use theology to promote violence is the height of disingenuity. FrT is not an atheist. He is an anti-theist. He spends an inordinate amount of time attempting to destroy theistic values. Even his signature is anti-theist. If he were an atheist, he would probably quit participating in these theological fora. Not a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 Well, all of the recorded out-of-body experiences(Why do I bother?) OK, show us ONE RECORDED (as in conformed, verifyable) "out-of-body experience". They are as bogus as the bible. Maybe more so. OOB's and NDE's as merely well identified physical electrochemical processes having no "removed from physical body" components. But we'll give you a chance to prove otherwise. Or hopefully have the lntegrety to admit you can't when you don't. are of the Biblical God.OK, so then every time someone claims THEY are out of their body, it is not THEM, it is the biblical GOD that is out of their body? Or are you saying that the only time there has ever been an OOB was when the biblical GOD did it? Including those of other religions and athiests like yourself. That has to mean something. Doesn't it?Yep, but you would like hearing what it means. Start by looking up "delusional". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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