Trump

[TomKalbfus]

Other than being at a higher risk of sunburn and skin cancer, and the ability to produce a bit more vitamin D with less sunlight, what exactly is so special about the lack of pigmentation in "white" people?  

 

I had a class in statics in college taught by a nice and brilliant professor who was from Africa, and he wasn't "white".  

They make more "history". Europe, North America, South America, Australia, what do these four continents have in common?

[Maine farmer]

They make more "history". Europe, North America, South America, Australia, what do these four continents have in common?

An aggressive nature and a sense of entitlement.  The Europeans went about looking to have empires and lay claim to lands already populated.  The Spanish destroyed a lot of history in Central America, as an examples of the victors writing the history books.

[TomKalbfus]

An aggressive nature and a sense of entitlement.  The Europeans went about looking to have empires and lay claim to lands already populated.  The Spanish destroyed a lot of history in Central America, as an examples of the victors writing the history books.

Why were they the victors writing the history books?

That is a moral judgement, what I'm talking about is accomplishments, Europeans have made more history, whether for good or for bad. Take away their accomplishments, then take away the computer at your desk.

Edited October 12, 2017 by TomKalbfus

[sanctus]

But TomKalbfus, are we ever thought at school the accomplishments of non-Europeans? The only thing we are thought from the chinese empire is kinda the gunpowder and that marco polo imported pasta from there...and in a 4k year empire there must be so much more...
So your argument about accomplishments might be right, but we also might be all biased and ignorant.

[TomKalbfus]

Okay, most of the Trump quotes about  illegals being rapists and such were from before he ended DACA, and I will have to look for those exact quotes.

 

Since the Trump campaign gained traction, I have noticed a rise in overt racism.  I have been hearing racist comments from people I know and I thought knew better.  Previously, I had thought racism hardly existed in the people I knew.

 

As for my comments about the white male layabouts I see, well, it is just to illustrate that they are no better than other skin colors.

Since Obama got elected, I've noticed a rise in overt racism from black people, and it hasn't gone away. Black people have a greater tendency to presume that white people are racist, and in their eyes, white people have got to prove that they are not, that presumption is racist in and of itself. Lets take the case of black football players kneeling instead of standing when the Star Spangled Banner is being played, they say the American flag is a racist symbol and they are protesting it by kneeling whenever the National Anthem is played. I say really, the very same flag that was flown by Union troops when they defeated the South and freed the slaves from bondage? They should protest the Confederate Flag whenever it is being flown in Football Stadiums and the song "Dixie" is being played. When was the last time that happened? I think you know the answer.

[TomKalbfus]

But TomKalbfus, are we ever thought at school the accomplishments of non-Europeans? The only thing we are thought from the chinese empire is kinda the gunpowder and that marco polo imported pasta from there...and in a 4k year empire there must be so much more...

So your argument about accomplishments might be right, but we also might be all biased and ignorant.

Name some. You already named gunpowder, but they didn't invent the gun. I think the key here is freedom of thought, Europeans tend to be freer thinkers than other races and that has gotten them far. Europeans are more likely to challenge authority than Asians, and a lot of new ideas which advance society also challenge existing social structures and sometimes upend them. China is a mostly unified nation, it has gotten a new government which took its ideology from a white European named Karl Marx, not one of our best philosophers. Karl Marx was a fan of big governments taking over the entire economy and crushing dissent within it, he was rejected by most in the West except for the Russians, and the Russians came back and forced in on eastern Europe, and they send some propaganda eastward, and translators dutifully translated it into Chinese and the Chinese adopted that system of government and they have been fighting to get out of it ever since. As I've said, Europeans have made a lot of history for both good and bad, I believe Communism was part of the "Bad."

[Buffy]

... Lets take the case of black football players kneeling instead of standing when the Star Spangled Banner is being played, they say the American flag is a racist symbol and they are protesting it by kneeling whenever the National Anthem is played.

 

Please cite a reference for this.

 

 

The light obtained by setting straw men on fire is not what we mean by illumination, :phones:

Buffy

[exchemist]

Since Obama got elected, I've noticed a rise in overt racism from black people, and it hasn't gone away. Black people have a greater tendency to presume that white people are racist, and in their eyes, white people have got to prove that they are not, that presumption is racist in and of itself. Lets take the case of black football players kneeling instead of standing when the Star Spangled Banner is being played, they say the American flag is a racist symbol and they are protesting it by kneeling whenever the National Anthem is played. I say really, the very same flag that was flown by Union troops when they defeated the South and freed the slaves from bondage? They should protest the Confederate Flag whenever it is being flown in Football Stadiums and the song "Dixie" is being played. When was the last time that happened? I think you know the answer.

I don't believe I have ever read that this gesture is anything to do with the US flag. From what I can gather it is a protest against racial injustice in the country, as a national issue, and that's why they make the gesture when the national anthem is being played.

 

(Speaking as a Brit, I must say I have always found the idolatry of the Stars and Stripes very creepy. It reminds me of fascism.)

 

Regarding your question about the Confederate flag and Dixie, I imagine the answer is that in a stadium in which those were shown, it would be a pillowcase job and blacks wouldn't even be allowed in!

[Maine farmer]

Why were they the victors writing the history books?

That is a moral judgement, what I'm talking about is accomplishments, Europeans have made more history, whether for good or for bad. Take away their accomplishments, then take away the computer at your desk.

Please do get rid of the computer at my desk, and the one that goes on my lap, and the one that fits in my pocket.  Life was damned good before I had them!

 

Of course, the history you learned in school was much like the courses I learned in my school in that they were very Western centered because we live where we do, but if you go looking for it, there is the whole rest of the world that has a history.  If you take away the accomplishments of non Europeans, the Europeans would not have been able to make their accomplishments.  I offer the mathematics we use (Arabic numerals) and the concept of zero https://www.livescience.com/27853-who-invented-zero.html   Non European origins.  Consider that the Chinese have a rich and far reaching history.

 

Since Obama got elected, I've noticed a rise in overt racism from black people, and it hasn't gone away. Black people have a greater tendency to presume that white people are racist, and in their eyes, white people have got to prove that they are not, that presumption is racist in and of itself. Lets take the case of black football players kneeling instead of standing when the Star Spangled Banner is being played, they say the American flag is a racist symbol and they are protesting it by kneeling whenever the National Anthem is played. I say really, the very same flag that was flown by Union troops when they defeated the South and freed the slaves from bondage? They should protest the Confederate Flag whenever it is being flown in Football Stadiums and the song "Dixie" is being played. When was the last time that happened? I think you know the answer.

I can't blame anyone for presuming that white people are racist, because so many are, and a large percentage are likely unaware that they are.  I remember once someone telling me that there was "A black guy working at the mill, and he was a really nice guy!"  The sound of surprise in his voice revealed his hidden racism.

 

I see the kneeling during the Anthem as symbolic of how we as a society fall short of the ideals for which the American flag should stand.  Namely equality and justice for all.

It has not been an effective way to make their point, but when you try to see the world from their point of view, and you try to understand that so many Americans grew up in a different America than those of us with light skin, you might be able to conclude that anger is not an effective way of reacting.

[TomKalbfus]

Please cite a reference for this.

 

 

The light obtained by setting straw men on fire is not what we mean by illumination, :phones:

Buffy

Then why are they kneeling in front of the flag, you tell me why they are doing it. I don't think the flag as anything to do with racism, but I'll tell you what the flag actually stands for. The 13 red and white stripes stand for the 13 colonies that declared their independence from the British Empire and established the United States of America, the stars on the blue field stands for the current number of states in the United States, the colors are red white and blue, none of it stands for racism or slavery, so if they are protesting racism, then why are they disrespecting the flag of the country that freed the slaves?

[TomKalbfus]

I don't believe I have ever read that this gesture is anything to do with the US flag. From what I can gather it is a protest against racial injustice in the country, as a national issue, and that's why they make the gesture when the national anthem is being played.

 

(Speaking as a Brit, I must say I have always found the idolatry of the Stars and Stripes very creepy. It reminds me of fascism.)

 

Regarding your question about the Confederate flag and Dixie, I imagine the answer is that in a stadium in which those were shown, it would be a pillowcase job and blacks wouldn't even be allowed in!

 

Was Samuel Adams a Fascist? Why did he and his Sons of Liberty throw tea into Boston Harbor? I don't think that was fascism.

Was George Washington a Fascist? I don't think we would have ended up having a republic if he was.

 

I'll tell you who I think was a Fascist, how about Maximillian Robespierre? He was the leader of the French Revolution, almost a contemporary of George Washington in fact, he ordered the execution of the French King and Queen, he was a man without pity, a cold blooded killer! Napoleon was a Fascist, a more moderate Fascist than Maximillian Robespierre, but still a Fascist, he started a World War in Europe after all! A lot of people were killed during the French Revolution and in the Napoleonic War, a lot more than in the American Revolution!

 

I think that on balance the United States of America has been and is a force for good in the World. I shudder to think of what would have happened to the United Kingdom during World War II if the United States never got involved, What if FDR did not do Lend Lease?

[TomKalbfus]

Please do get rid of the computer at my desk, and the one that goes on my lap, and the one that fits in my pocket.  Life was damned good before I had them!

 

Of course, the history you learned in school was much like the courses I learned in my school in that they were very Western centered because we live where we do, but if you go looking for it, there is the whole rest of the world that has a history.  If you take away the accomplishments of non Europeans, the Europeans would not have been able to make their accomplishments.  I offer the mathematics we use (Arabic numerals) and the concept of zero https://www.livescience.com/27853-who-invented-zero.html   Non European origins.  Consider that the Chinese have a rich and far reaching history.

 

I can't blame anyone for presuming that white people are racist, because so many are, and a large percentage are likely unaware that they are.  I remember once someone telling me that there was "A black guy working at the mill, and he was a really nice guy!"  The sound of surprise in his voice revealed his hidden racism.

 

I see the kneeling during the Anthem as symbolic of how we as a society fall short of the ideals for which the American flag should stand.  Namely equality and justice for all.

It has not been an effective way to make their point, but when you try to see the world from their point of view, and you try to understand that so many Americans grew up in a different America than those of us with light skin, you might be able to conclude that anger is not an effective way of reacting.

 

Arabs are Caucasians just like Europeans, a bit darker skinned than those living in Northern Europe, but not much different from Greeks, Italians, and Spaniards. The first civilization was that of the Sumerians. Civilization began there and its center moved north and west over time. First it was Sumer, then Egypt, then Greece, the Rome, and then into Northern Europe and then across the Atlantic. What became of the ancient centers of civilization? They had their heyday, but they grew poor over time and ended up as Third World Countries. the Romans considered Egypt to be the richest part of their Empire and also their bread basket, hard to believe now! India was the Crown Jewel of the British Empire, some "crown jewel!" How do you explain China, a 5000 year old civilization, that failed to colonize Australia right on their doorstep, and there was a chain of islands leading right to it in what is now Indonesia, yet the first people to explore and colonize it were British. There is something wrong here! How could China just sit there for 5000 years and not even be aware of the existence of Australia? Seems hard to imagine for me. China had a huge fleet of ships, they sailed them around Africa and all the way to Europe, but the failed to colonize Australia, and Australia's first contact with civilization was with the British!

 

What was China's history all about? Men on horses, swords, bows and arrows, wars? China was a very insular civilization, it built the Great Wall, was conquered by the Mongols, but mostly it just sat there and awaited contact by the Europeans, who exploited them! Now you can argue whether they should or shouldn't have, but can you explain to me why they could? An 5000 year old civilization, the third oldest in human history, and the oldest in existence today? Why was it so easy for Europeans to conquer four continents? No other civilization ever done that! No other civilization except the Europeans ever discovered a new continent. I really don't care all that much about the various Emperors and Dynasties of China, they never did much to affect my history, but what the Europeans did certainly affected their, particularly Karl Marx! Karl Marx invented Communism, and the Chinese didn't seem to mind that Karl Marx was a white person, or that whites exploited China during the 19th century and got them hooked on Opium, but they were quite open to the ideas of Karl Marx and based their Revolution on what he wrote in his Communist Manifesto. I don't think any Western Country ever was founded based on the ideas of Confucius, or any other Chinese philosopher. Maybe the Chinese should have been more racist and suspicious of the West rather than being open-minded about Karl Marx. I think Chinese civilization must have been bankrupt if they were so willing to adopt such foreign ideas like Communism for instance, probably one of the worst ideas that Western Civilization ever spawned!

 

I take the long view, for thousands of years, there was slavery on the North American continent, the native American tribes warred with each other and took each other as slaves, but within 400 years of Columbus discovering America, Slavery was abolished, that was a short period of time compared to the thousands of years prior to that where slavery existed. Columbus took some slaves, but remember it was also Western Civilization that first questioned the morality of slavery in the first place, the American Indians never did, the Chinese never did, and in some respects they still have slavery today. (as in North Korea)

 

As for black people protesting the flag because we're not perfect, because some people are racist. The United States fought a Civil War to abolish slavery, we've made significant advances in the 152 years since we won the Civil War and we even elected our first black President, but if that is not good enough for those black football players, they could always move to Africa. I think their expectations are too high if they think they can eliminate every last racist in the United States, if they can't accept the fact that their will always be some people that they don't like or who don't like them, then what are they doing in this country? Seems clear to me that we can never live up to their standards, they are millionaires, they make up more than 50% of most football teams, yet they are complaining about racism?

[exchemist]

Was Samuel Adams a Fascist? Why did he and his Sons of Liberty throw tea into Boston Harbor? I don't think that was fascism.

Was George Washington a Fascist? I don't think we would have ended up having a republic if he was.

 

I'll tell you who I think was a Fascist, how about Maximillian Robespierre? He was the leader of the French Revolution, almost a contemporary of George Washington in fact, he ordered the execution of the French King and Queen, he was a man without pity, a cold blooded killer! Napoleon was a Fascist, a more moderate Fascist than Maximillian Robespierre, but still a Fascist, he started a World War in Europe after all! A lot of people were killed during the French Revolution and in the Napoleonic War, a lot more than in the American Revolution!

 

I think that on balance the United States of America has been and is a force for good in the World. I shudder to think of what would have happened to the United Kingdom during World War II if the United States never got involved, What if FDR did not do Lend Lease?

Nobody with reasonable political views would doubt the contribution of the United States to the freedom of the Western world. Lend lease was undoubtedly pretty crucial to the UK's survival. (Though people sometimes forget what the British gave the US in intellectual property as part of the deal, including the cavity magnetron (radar), the design of the jet engine and the original feasibility paper on the atom bomb.)

   

My point is not that the US is fascist. Even under Trump it is nowhere near. But this ritual, concerning a bit of fabric with a more or less pretty design on it, seems creepy and faintly fascist. The concept of "disrespecting the flag" would seem ridiculously pompous in London. But perhaps it is more important symbolically to a country without a monarch.

Edited October 13, 2017 by exchemist

[LaurieAG]

The light obtained by setting straw men on fire is not what we mean by illumination, :phones:

Buffy

 

Lol Buffy, and in a mediocracy the straw man is king. 

[sanctus]

Tom another reason to kneel during the anthem is that it is a very effective form of peaceful protest (see the attention it gets!), you say they should love that flag since it is what freed them. Well back then it was true, now though it is the flag of the whole country and the whole country is full of racial injustice (as well as social injustice)

Wrt to accomplishments read through this (lots of things I did not know about since going to a school in the west):
http://www.asbmb.org/asbmbtoday/asbmbtoday_article.aspx?id=32437

Or this one even better (early seismograph around year 0 for instance!):
http://listverse.com/2009/12/20/10-great-non-european-achievers/

[Maine farmer]

 

 

As for black people protesting the flag because we're not perfect, because some people are racist. The United States fought a Civil War to abolish slavery, we've made significant advances in the 152 years since we won the Civil War and we even elected our first black President, but if that is not good enough for those black football players, they could always move to Africa. I think their expectations are too high if they think they can eliminate every last racist in the United States, if they can't accept the fact that their will always be some people that they don't like or who don't like them, then what are they doing in this country? Seems clear to me that we can never live up to their standards, they are millionaires, they make up more than 50% of most football teams, yet they are complaining about racism?

So just because they are successful and wealthy, they should keep their opinions to themselves? How many "white" people do that?   You basically state that you yourself believe the "black" people are inferior because the "white " people dominate our culture and write our history books, and then you take offense to having people be offended by racism.  I don't think they expect to rid this country of racism, but they want to remind us that oppressive racism still exists.  We still have work to do at improving equality and justice in this country.  There is still much room for improvement, and telling people that if they don't like the way things are they should leave will keep us from progress.  

[TomKalbfus]

So just because they are successful and wealthy, they should keep their opinions to themselves? How many "white" people do that?   You basically state that you yourself believe the "black" people are inferior because the "white " people dominate our culture and write our history books, and then you take offense to having people be offended by racism.  I don't think they expect to rid this country of racism, but they want to remind us that oppressive racism still exists.  We still have work to do at improving equality and justice in this country.  There is still much room for improvement, and telling people that if they don't like the way things are they should leave will keep us from progress.  

Don't get me wrong, there are white people who are ungrateful for their fortunes as well, but the black football players are highly visible examples of success, and their ingratitude is showing. Can we expect, in this country, for every black person to be as successful as they are? No we can't expect that in any country. I am not as successful as they are and I'm not black! If you want a country were everybody is a millionaire, you probably are going to have to wait for artificial intelligence to do all the work. Life is not fair, in this time of our Nation's history, racism is a part of the background noise, we are not going to eliminate it entirely, just as we can't eliminate poverty entirely in an economy where human labor inputs are required, in essence if one doesn't work, one doesn't get paid. In an economy that is doing very well, there will be racists who will not want to hire black people, but those are few, people need to get their work done, and most will hire people to get it done so they can earn money, and they will not care if their employees are black or not. The owners of the football teams hired black players because they are good at playing football and they want to win football games so people buy tickets to watch them. The football players are a showcase that some black people can succeed despite the existence of racism, Racists have not held them back. there is a law of diminishing returns, the percentage of racists in the population is small enough so that they can be ignored, they don't affect the success of black people if they really want to succeed. the era where policy can help eliminate racism is over. Using government policy is like using a sledge hammer to drive a thumb tack into the wall. Government policy does more damage  than the problem it solves, just as a sledge hammer will punch a hole in the wall where you want to drive in that thumb tack. There was a time when racism was systematic and institutional, but that time is no longer. The thing to do right now is let people have their opinions and ignore them if you don't like them. If their racism is not hurting anybody, then its best to let them have their freedom of speech. Let society heal on its own, government only makes things worse. Not saluting the flag during football games offends more people than it convinces others not to hold racist opinions, in fact it gives people more reason to be racist, because it spreads the meme that "blacks are not patriotic because they don't salute the flag!"