Theory of Beginning of Life and "God"

[Qfwfq]

Uhm, didn't some important human dude in the Old Testament physically wrestle with God ... and win?

Hermeneutics. Have you ever heard of it?

 

And, uhm, wasn't Jesus God? Jesus sure had a human body, now didn't He.

Doctrine of the Trinity. God is immaterial but, being almighty, can "be" whatever He chooses, whenever He chooses, for however long He chooses.

 

If God is described as having a human form anywhere - including the Bible - then the statement that God's never described to be a human or of human nature is wrong.

It was imprecise to say "never described to be a human or of human nature" but perhaps this wasn't something substantial to pounce on.

[TeleMad]

Qfwfq: It was imprecise to say "never described to be a human or of human nature" but perhaps this wasn't something substantial to pounce on.

 

Not at all for Christians. Their entire belief system is based on the "fact" that God became human. I guess that basically the ENTIRE underpinning of one of the world's MAJOR religions is too small to worry about, huh Qfwfq!

[TeleMad]

Hermeneutics. Have you ever heard of it?

 

Fairy tales. Ever heard of them?

 

TeleMad: And, uhm, wasn't Jesus God? Jesus sure had a human body, now didn't He.

 

Qfwfq: Doctrine of the Trinity. God is immaterial but, being almighty, can "be" whatever He chooses, whenever He chooses, for however long He chooses.

 

At least according to the fairy tale.

 

By the way, if what you said is true, then God could be the devil. Is that what you are saying?

[alexander]

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexander

let me try to put god in the picture for you, first of all god is really formless, he's never described to be a human or of human nature ...

 

 

Uhm, didn't some important human dude in the Old Testament physically wrestle with God ... and win?

 

I dunno, Qfwfq's answer is intimidating...

 

And, uhm, wasn't Jesus God? Jesus sure had a human body, now didn't He.

No Jesus is not God, God is God, Jesus is a messiah or the savior depending on the religious volume you read. It is wrong to confuse the two, especially for such an active atheist as yourself. Yes, Christianity worships Jesus not exactly God, traditional Catholicism worships his Mother more then anyone else, Jews worship Moses, yet another messiah, Arabs according to shahadatan are supposed to listen to and worship Muhammad, this one is tricky, because muhammad is one of the prophets whom Allah or God speaks directly to and through. In Buddhism there really is not much of a God, Buddha himself (Buddha Siddhartha Gautama) is a real person who lived approximately in between 563 and 383BC in India, this religion is completely different as there really isnt much of a God, since the goal of life is to do good things, so not too many bad things will happen to you and you will peacefully reach Nirvana which is a sort of heaven, oh and they deny any existance of supernatural beings, so...

 

So? If God is described as having a human form anywhere - including the Bible - then the statement that God's never described to be a human or of human nature is wrong.

First of all I am agnostic, so whether God has a form or has no form differs very little to me. I also would not deny the fact that i have not read every religious text in the world, nor that i do not have a photographic memory, but in most major religions God does not have a form, in catholicism any representation of God is I beleive forbidden, as well as in Islam, while buddhism as i described above does not have a god at all, that should just about cover all major religions in the world today. Yes, if there is a description of God in the Bible, please post the quote and the text name and location here, you would have proven that in Catholic or Christian or Jewish or all of the above, if you find it in the Old Testament that is shared between the three religions, does have a form of God, and maybe even the fact that God is of human nature, that is fine, and will push me to reconsider my current trend of thought...

 

 

Ah yes, God could be the midichlorians, giving the Jedi the force.

If you are trying to be sorcastic, you have failed, you did not prove me wrong, and i am not definite with my definition, so its really more of a theory then anything else, theories are made to be disproven, but i probably have more facts based on how little we know about the universe to support my point then you do to disprove it, however it is not a call to do so, as it is still a very much forming theory... (some facts though: Einsteins lamda variable, that is present in some of his equations (and was beleived to be a mistake), the now proven dark matter and its corresponding energy, and we know nothing of how it works or whether there are other undiscovered forces in the universe that we just may not know about or have yet even imagined to discover)

[alexander]

By the way, if what you said is true, then God could be the devil. Is that what you are saying?

 

no his quote specifically states

can "be" whatever He chooses

whatever not whoever and if you follow the Bible on this one, Devil is really an angel who has decided to start a rebellion against God in heaven and decided to overthrow him. He had an uprising but the forces of the God won, for that that angel was sentenced to spend his entire life in suffering and sent to a overlook a place that was exactly opposite of heaven called Hell. That angel later became known as Devil, so God would need to have an ability to become whoever in order to be able to become the devil...

[TeleMad]

I dunno, Qfwfq's answer is intimidating...

 

Yeah, it was so intimidating that I was trembling in my boots! :-)

 

Did you catch my intimidating rejoinder?

 

alexander: No Jesus is not God, God is God, Jesus is a messiah or the savior depending on the religious volume you read. It is wrong to confuse the two, especially for such an active atheist as yourself. Yes, Christianity worships Jesus not exactly God ...

 

Dude, you can't be serious. Are really claiming the mainstream Christianity doesn't hold that Jesus is God? Have you heard of the Holy Trinity? Do you not know what Christians believe scriptures such as the following mean?

 

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory of the only begotten of the Father, and full of grace and truth." (John 1:1-5 & 1:14)

 

"For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holly Spirit; and these three are one." (1 John 5:7)

 

"I and my Father are one" (John 10:30)

 

"... He who has seen Me has seen the Father. ... I am the Father and the Father is Me. ... The Father who dwells in Me ... Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me..." (John 14:8-11)

[TINNY]

Arabs according to shahadatan are supposed to listen to and worship Muhammad, this one is tricky, because muhammad is one of the prophets whom Allah or God speaks directly to and through.

ARe you referring to Muslims? Then why just Arabs? There are Arabic Christians and atheists, and there are non-arab Muslims (more muslims are non-arabs). THere is absolutely no evidence to say that Muslims worship Muhammad. Do you know what the shahadatan is? It is to witness that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is God's MESSENGER. If a person worships Muhammad, that person cannot be a Muslim. If he was a Muslim when he worshipped Muhammad, then that person would be an apostate.

About the concept of God in Islam, the four verses of surah Al-Ikhlas (Chapter 112, verse 1- 4) explain very lucidly:

1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only

2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute

3. He begets not, nor is He begotten

4. And none is like Him

[TeleMad]

Telemad: By the way, if what you said is true, then God could be the devil. Is that what you are saying?

 

alexander: no his quote specifically states

 

***********************

can "be" whatever He chooses

***********************

 

whatever not whoever ...

 

Gotcha! So God is not all powerful then. You've just listed something that He is incapable of doing. His powers are limited.

[alexander]

I am very sorry tinny, it is a typo, I really meant muslims not arab.

THere is absolutely no evidence to say that Muslims worship Muhammad.

No, muslims worship Allah not Muhammad, but since i was mentioning saviors and whatnot i figured I'd mention the God's voice. Seriously, shahadatan says: "There is no god but God (Allah); Muhammad is the messenger of God."

[alexander]

Gotcha! So God is not all powerful then. You've just listed something that He is incapable of doing. His powers are limited.

first of all it doesnt hurt me a bit when you say that, second of all you are turning this in a direction that is tangent to the discussion, I was replying to your comment about qf's post that is why I said that his post states not what any religious text does dude...

P.S. Devil (Satan) is referred to in the bible as Lucifer...

 

Are really claiming the mainstream Christianity doesn't hold that Jesus is God? Have you heard of the Holy Trinity? Do you not know what Christians believe scriptures such as the following mean?

I am saying that they are worshiping Jesus, Jesus is Gods son hense all the talk about him being the son of god, and although Jesus and God may be one, Jesus is Jesus, and he is of human nature while God is God and his nature is unknown and as far as i see, unstated...

[TeleMad]

first of all it doesnt hurt me a bit when you say that, second of all you are turning this in a direction that is tangent to the discussion, I was replying to your comment about qf's post that is why I said that his post states not what any religious text does dude...

 

It was a no-win situation for the religious ... that was my hiddne point. If God could be the devil, then God could be evil and He's not 100% percent righteous (that is, religious people could not say that He was, is, and always will be righteous). If on the other hand God can't become the devil, then he's not omnipotent: His powers are limited.

 

You should have seen that one coming.

 

 

alexander: I am saying claming that they are worshiping the Jesus, Jesus is Gods son, and although Jesus and God may be one, Jesus is Jesus, and he is of human nature while God is God and his nature is unknown and as far as i see, unstated...

 

No, Jesus IS God. That's the neat thing about the Trinity: Jesus is both (1) the Son of God and (2) God, at the same time!

[adnaan]

First of all, if God were the Devil then why would the Devil say keep away from me and worship God.

 

No, Jesus IS God. That's the neat thing about the Trinity: Jesus is both (1) the Son of God and (2) God, at the same time!

 

No. Jesus cannot be the SON, and God at the same time. It would make it seem that he was the Son, and the Father? thats a sick thought. Plainly, They totally seem different, there is no way is convincing anyone that they are One.

[alexander]

No, Jesus IS God. That's the neat thing about the Trinity: Jesus is both (1) the Son of God and (2) God, at the same time!

Jesus might be god by the Christian beleifs, but God is not Jesus, you have said so yourself:

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holly Spirit; and these three are one

notice any mention that God is Jesus?

it is Jesus who proclaims that he is God:

I and my Father are one

or rather has become so after his resurection, God was not borne with Jesus, he was there before the world (In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God) so God is the World, not a human.

[alexander]

If God could be the devil, then God could be evil

one does not imply the other, the fact that god can become devil does not mean the he will become evil, if i was god and could become you it does not imply that i will be agressive and attack people all over the place does it now?

[TeleMad]

adnaan: First of all, if God were the Devil then why would the Devil say keep away from me and worship God.

 

What? Makes no sense in relation to what I said. Try again.

 

TeleMad: No, Jesus IS God. That's the neat thing about the Trinity: Jesus is both (1) the Son of God and (2) God, at the same time!

 

adnaan: No. Jesus cannot be the SON, and God at the same time. It would make it seem that he was the Son, and the Father? thats a sick thought. Plainly, They totally seem different, there is no way is convincing anyone that they are One.

 

I already presented several scriptural quotes that stated Jesus was God, and that Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are ONE. There’s one line of support.

 

Now, how about some logic. If Jesus was not God at all, then he was JUST a man: Christians would be grossly wrong and would need to stop worshipping a mere mortal man instead of God. So Christianity must hold that Jesus was (at least part) God.

 

Well, …

 

“Always remember that Jesus walked this earth as not only being 100% God, but also as 100% man..” (http://www.free-gifts.com/Holy_Trinity.htm)

 

Hmmm, Jesus walked the Earth as 100% God. Not 75%, or 16.25% … nope, 100%.

 

That’s more outside support, and more logic. Here’s a bit more.

 

Now, if Jesus was God, and God was also God, and the two were not the same, then God would not be ONE: God would be 2! A clear contradiction of Biblical scripture.

 

Even if Jesus were only part God (say 50% God and 50% human), and God was God, and the two were not the same, then God would not be ONE: God would be 1.5! Again, a contradiction of Biblical scripture.

 

Jesus was God. In fact, he was 100% God … and 100% human, at the same time! And yet people can “prove” using scripture and logic that while Jesus was God, He was not the same God as God Himself! Gotta love that Bible!

[TeleMad]

alexander: Jesus might be god by the Christian beleifs, but God is not Jesus, you have said so yourself:

 

I did? Can you show me? Keep in mind that Jesus was 100% God, He also was not God Himself, and God is ONE. Confusing, isn't it?!?!?! So if you find some apparent contradiction in what I say, you might want to see if it arises from me or from the Bible and religious people.

 

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holly Spirit; and these three are one

 

alexander: notice any mention that God is Jesus?

 

Yes. The Word and the Father are one. The Word is Jesus (surely you know that much) and the Father is the standard old God (surely you know that much too). And they are ONE.

 

it is Jesus who proclaims that he is God:

 

I and my Father are one

 

And his followers that helped write part of the Bible. If the Bible is truth, then Jesus is God: they are ONE.

 

alexander: or rather has become so after his resurection, God was not borne with Jesus, he was there before the world (In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God) so God is the Word, not a human.

 

"The Word" refers to Jesus. In the beginning there was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God.

 

Note again how Jesus is both God and also with God. Sounds kind of like a contradiction, doesn't it.

[Qfwfq]

Qfwfq: It was imprecise to say "never described to be a human or of human nature" but perhaps this wasn't something substantial to pounce on.

Not at all for Christians. Their entire belief system is based on the "fact" that God became human.

This wasn't a reply to my point.

 

Although I can see that Alex lacks grasp of the doctrines (not less than you lack it), I said that it was pointless for you to make such a to-do of it. As usual you are simply attacking anything you can and I'd say it has brought things quite off topic too. This is of no use in a reasonable discussion.

 

Hermeneutics doesn't mean fairy tails, it means interpretation of a symbolic language:

 

The science of interpretation and explanation; exegesis;

esp., that branch of theology which defines the laws whereby

the meaning of the Scriptures is to be ascertained.

--Schaff-Herzog Encyc.

 

Personally I am also agnostic and I wasn't supporting the doctrine of Trinity, I was saying that your points were moot.

 

By the way, if what you said is true, then God could be the devil.

Apart from the fact that Satan was an angel that disobeyed and was sent off in disgrace, I'd say that God, being almighty, could choose to do anything, even if contradictory. I guess that One who is almighty is not limited by such trivia as logic and coherence. Perhaps He could even create an unmovable object and also an irresistable force. Perhaps He could even not exist, as well as exist, if He so chose.

I dunno, Qfwfq's answer is intimidating...

Is it??? So sorry! :)

No Jesus is not God, God is God, Jesus is a messiah or the savior depending on the religious volume you read. It is wrong to confuse the two, especially for such an active atheist as yourself. Yes, Christianity worships Jesus not exactly God, traditional Catholicism worships his Mother more then anyone else,

Sorry Alex, you are incorrectly describing the Christian faiths, especially the Catholic. Further, my 'whatever' was meant to comprise whoever too, as He is almighty.

 

The doctrine of Trinity means that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One God. Of all dogmas of faith this one is considered a mystery that no human intellect could ever grasp, it isn't meant to be understood. It is also the greatest point of disagreement of Islam with Christianity. Islam considers it a negation of monotheism and considers Christ a very special prophet but not God.