Life without faith

[Southtown]

Our record might be decent, but we certainly have black spots.

-Will

Right, I won't argue with ya there.

[alexander]

but we certainly have black spots.

Yeah, more like black holes...

[blazer2000x]

I think in every country it seems like the farther they get away from God, the worse the situation becomes. One thing has been proven dengerous to all countries in the past, a direct attack on God or His people. Every such attempt has failed miserably and painfully, finally resulting in the strengthening of the peoples faith. Unfortunately most countries are now headed on that very path...

[Southtown]

Yeah, more like black holes...

Is that supposed to be an argument?

[blazer2000x]

I think he was just emphasizing his agreement.

[niviene]

I think in every country it seems like the farther they get away from God, the worse the situation becomes. One thing has been proven dengerous to all countries in the past, a direct attack on God or His people. Every such attempt has failed miserably and painfully, finally resulting in the strengthening of the peoples faith. Unfortunately most countries are now headed on that very path...

 

I assume that by "His people" you mean believers of God. I'm sure many of the people who died in the WTC attacks were believers of God. If you do not specifically mean believers, then I guess you are referring to "God's children" which would mean all people. And, we all know that doesn't add up. Plenty of people have been successfully killed... believers and non-believers alike. Believing in God doesn't stop you from dying, it's just supposed to give you peace in the process; something to look forward to afterwords.

 

I think believing in God is not a bad way to go, as far as building a country and it's rules and regulations. But, when I say God, I mean the ideal - in the way that I took my oath of office and swore to "God". God as in how each of us perceives the thing in our lives which we would not betray for any reason. And, that is why I don't feel threatened by money saying "In God We Trust", or our pledge of allegience saying "Under God". Er, in the United States, that is.

 

Some of the worst sects of people seem to claim to be very close to god. They believe that their way is the only way and they are willing and able to kill themselves and everybody else to "be close to God". They believe it is the will of God that they are following. Think of 911; think of the crusades; think of the inquisition. There are many examples. I think God must be looked at also with reason. Many religions are peaceful, but simply to say that being "away from God" makes things worse isn't always the case. Who says what it means to be away from God? Does only the Christian God count? I don't think so. I think that any peaceful religion can form a working and humanistic government with a relatively decent human rights record....

[Southtown]

I think he was just emphasizing his agreement.

Hahaha! Indeed.

[alexander]

Is that supposed to be an argument?

emphesis

Originally Posted by blazer2000x

I think he was just emphasizing his agreement.

 

Hahaha! Indeed.

there we go, cheer up, why would i argue the truth?

 

I think believing in God is not a bad way to go, as far as building a country and it's rules and regulations.

Do i even need to put Afghanistan on the board here? I think that country rules and religion should always be separate and should never interfear with one another, otherwise you get france at the end of 17th century, where cardinal, who i might remind you was the religious leader of the country, had more power then the king of France. Thanks to Napoleon, that all changed. But to a more recent argument, afghanistan was under the rule of religion for the longest time, i beleive ever since the formation of the country, most of the laws were made sure to follow what their religion says, men had to grow beirds and if you were a man over 18 without a beird, you could get legaly shot on the street, women were all treated like nothing Men were in power and nothing could convince them otherwise. Look at what happened to perhaps the largest and oldest statues of Buddah in Afghanistan, as far as convincing, if you have never read about Anglo-Afghan wars, Brittain had invaded afghanistan 3 times, and within 3 months, their newly establish government there was slaughtered and old rulers were restored to power. But that was not the only race of people driven by their beleif in god. Need i remind you of Mongols, Turks, Egyptians, Greeks, Macedonians, Aztech, Indians, Goths, Anglos, Saxons, middle age Spaniards, French and Brittish? Not convincing enough? Ok, what do you thing drives the Terrorists and Suiside bombers to do what they do? Osama has created his own religion based on Islam, he rewrote some rules, and now all people who are stupid enough to follow, end up being used for not too many good services to the humanity...

 

Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying that god does not exist or that he is neither good nor bad or that you cant base a country on peoples beleifs in him/her/it. I merely state that our ways of worshiping god through religion that self implies people can be easily abused.

[majordinkydau]

My delusion can beat up your delusion!

Why do we seem to feel the need to prove someone else wrong? If what I believe is wrong I'm the one who is limiting myself. If I enforce my delusion on you then I limit you. If I belive 2+2= 4 and you challenge my belief I should not be offended but would ask you to offer proof for your new sum. God does not need my defense nor would my most ernest efforts benifit the diety. Evolution without recognizing a spiritual scorce rules out the unmeasurable variable in human behavior. If you beat an animal daily while its young it will grow up to be a miserable beast, the human on the other hand has a choice that springs from a deep well of the spirit. One can cherish every wrong we recieve in childhood and learn to do wrong to others as many psycologists claim we do or one can learn from our pain and become a healer and scorce of mercy to others in pain. Why can a dysfunctional childhood produce one person of greatness and another of evil. No one has ever become great without some measure of suffering. But spiritual things can't be measured on an abacus and therefore tend to be dismissed by the purly logical mind.

A fact you might look at is the nation of Isreal, no nation on earth has ever been dismanteled so completly and then come back to become a people. The bible said it would happen and it did. Disprove one sentence in the bible and the whole book falls apart because the standard it sets is perfect. Read the Koran and you'll see no test of its veracity, only a call to take Mohamed at his word. If Isreal can be erased from the map you can erase their god.

[Boerseun]

My delusion can beat up your delusion!

Good one... kinda like the Crusades...

Why do we seem to feel the need to prove someone else wrong?

'Cause this is a S C I E N C E F O R U M , hombre.

If what I believe is wrong I'm the one who is limiting myself.

Indeed. What's even worse, is if you keep on ranting and raving with no clear line of argument, no progression of logic, just generously gurgutating a gutload of gunk. What be thy point, squire?

If I enforce my delusion on you then I limit you. If I belive 2+2= 4 and you challenge my belief I should not be offended but would ask you to offer proof for your new sum. God does not need my defense nor would my most ernest efforts benifit the diety.

Maybe a blood-offer will placate Him/Her/It for a while...

Evolution without recognizing a spiritual scorce rules out the unmeasurable variable in human behavior.

What are you on about, Jeeves? What 'unmeasurable variable in human behaviour' would require a spiritual source? (I assume you meant 'source'). Maybe humans are so unpredictable that we need a supernatural explanation for our eccentricities. Or maybe our unpredictable, chaotic, random eccentricities is what gave rise to the deity in the first place. A million monkeys, each armed with a gleaming Remington typewriter...

If you beat an animal daily while its young it will grow up to be a miserable beast, the human on the other hand has a choice that springs from a deep well of the spirit.

Haha - good one. Beat up a kid daily for no reason, and it'll turn out in 99% of the cases to be a juvenile delinquent. The other 1% will probably die from neglect and maltreatment. What's this 'deep well of the spirit'? And how does it plug in to the rest of your rant?

One can cherish every wrong we recieve in childhood and learn to do wrong to others as many psycologists claim we do or one can learn from our pain and become a healer and scorce of mercy to others in pain. Why can a dysfunctional childhood produce one person of greatness and another of evil. No one has ever become great without some measure of suffering. But spiritual things can't be measured on an abacus and therefore tend to be dismissed by the purly logical mind.

Yeah - Hitler had a real nasty childhood. NOT. Don't let them indoctrinate you with a whole bunch of psycho-babble. What we are in adulthood is a concatenation not only of past experiences, but also of the uniqueness of each individual brain that can be explained in a big way through genetics, as well as environmental influences like drugs, diets, etc. There's a weed growing in SA, the pips inducing a permanent psychotic state. Its illegal, but still grows in the wild - and every now and then some idjit takes it to mind to swallow some to see what happens, eventually spending a couple of months, even years, in ICU. I kid you not. That kinda screws with the 'deep well of the spirit', I'd say.

A fact you might look at is the nation of Isreal, no nation on earth has ever been dismanteled so completly and then come back to become a people. The bible said it would happen and it did.

You're talking about the synthetic, artificial State in the Middle East? The 'State' created by Whitehall in the '40s to placate international pressure when the Nazi attrocities became evident? The 'State' left behind by a Britain eager to get out of the mess which was, and still is, the Middle East? What exactly, in this 'State', was a direct result of Biblical forecasts (first-century wishful thinking) or Godly intervention?

Disprove one sentence in the bible and the whole book falls apart...

Hear hear. My point exactly. Only problem is that its so gosh-darned easy.

... because the standard it sets is perfect. Read the Koran and you'll see no test of its veracity, only a call to take Mohamed at his word. If Isreal can be erased from the map you can erase their god.

Once again. What be thy point? The 'standards' set by the Bible is dubious, at best. We don't stone homosexuals and prostitutes - the 'Rule of God' fell out of vogue with the introduction of the 'Rule of Law'. I take it you have read the Koran. Well, so have I. It's equally irrelevant, and your statement reducing the value of the Muslim Good Book saying its 'only a call to take Mohammed at his word' is as valid a statement as saying the Bible means nothing, its only a call to take Jesus at his word. See the consistency issues here?

[blazer2000x]

Hear hear. My point exactly. Only problem is that its so gosh-darned easy.

 

lets see you try.

[adnaan]

Read the Koran and you'll see no test of its veracity, only a call to take Mohamed at his word.

 

You say this like you know the Quran perfectly. The Quran has its own ways in showing you tests of truthfulness in its own ways, just like the Bible. To say that it gives no test of its veracity and that its only a call to take Mohamed at his word, well that plainly shows you have never read the Quran. Maybe you have read some, but not ALL. Read it before you tell others people to read it.

 

You think the Bibles veracity is any better? Well if have more knowledge of something you would go for it, but if you have equal knowledge of both Quran and Bible, you would drop your belief in the Bible and possibly the Quran, of how unsettling it sounds.

[Tormod]

While some historic events in both religious books can be verified, faith cannot. The most important distinction between science and religion is that whereas religious teachings are infallible, scientific teachings are not. Like it was pointed out, the purpose of science is to challenge new ideas by testing them and looking for ways to falsify them. That is the entire purpose of the scientific method.

 

There is no use in arguing that religion is "true". If religion is true, then the entire covenant of faith falls to pieces. If a religious thought fails a test, explanations are made. The fundamentals are not changed, only the explanations and interpretations.

 

Likewise, it makes no sense to argue that science is "true". Scientific theories may be more or less correct, but all they do is describe what we observe and predict things we can test. If the theories fail the test, we come up with new theories.

 

Thus evolution is a theory and it is a proven theory. It does not mean that it explains everything correct. It may be 100% wrong. But using religion to dismiss a scientific theory is bound to fail.

[Queso]

While some historic events in both religious books can be verified, faith cannot. The most important distinction between science and religion is that whereas religious teachings are infallible, scientific teachings are not. Like it was pointed out, the purpose of science is to challenge new ideas by testing them and looking for ways to falsify them. That is the entire purpose of the scientific method.

 

There is no use in arguing that religion is "true". If religion is true, then the entire covenant of faith falls to pieces. If a religious thought fails a test, explanations are made. The fundamentals are not changed, only the explanations and interpretations.

 

Likewise, it makes no sense to argue that science is "true". Scientific theories may be more or less correct, but all they do is describe what we observe and predict things we can test. If the theories fail the test, we come up with new theories.

 

Thus evolution is a theory and it is a proven theory. It does not mean that it explains everything correct. It may be 100% wrong. But using religion to dismiss a scientific theory is bound to fail.

 

tormod of infinite wisdom.

[majordinkydau]

If your pulse raises while you read my ranting it is a symptom your beliefs have some holes or flaws causing doubt. Every time I ask for proof of evolutions theroy's most people call me stupid or other attempts to insult me for asking a very simple question. 300 years ago if I questioned the bible's veracity I'd be killed by people who proved clearly that they did not know this god they were so carefully defending.

My knowledge of the laws of nature show me chance never produces order. When I walk along a stream I can tell wether a log jam was created by flood or by beavers, if by flood it is quite unstable and unordered, if by beavers it is organized. I've heard the big bang created a very ordered universe by chance but I believe this theory is based on a desire to prove there is no god and so its advocates ignore any evidence that poke holes it their theory. The Scopes Monkey trial would have been over turned if it was a criminal trial because the major piece of evidence was a pigs jaw bone ground down to appear humanoid. Criminals have walked away free on smaller trial scams.

I'll confess to being a raving lunatic but why do many of the people answering this thread use threats and insults when all I'm doing is sharing my observations and asking questions. Great so I'm just an idiot if I ask a question that might make someone else nervous. My IQ has been measured 3 times with results as low as 95 and high as 135, I've been diagnosed with a passel of mental defects and "uncorrected personality traits" guarenteeing I'll never amount to anything in life. How can a psycotic's rant spark such emotional responses in scientific minds.

If I try an experiment and get the same results every time I call that factual and reliable scientific methods, but if you ask me to believe your "expert" knowledge because I'm too simple minded to see truth myself, I don't buy it.

Do you think the bible asks for blind faith? I'll offer you a simple scientific test, just read it and apply it to yourself, your heart will change. Most people read it and apply it to other peoples lives, "if your neighbor's eye offends you,get a claw hammer and pluck it out". ( A dyslexic application of scripture) If nothings happens after this experiment throw the book away and ignore it, going about with a life that does not work and relationships that fall apart.

I'm like the blind man before the religious leaders saying "I don't know if he "Jesus" is from God or not, all I know is I was blind and now I see".

If you ask God for proof with an open mind you will get it. Blind faith is what fanatics wave as they burn their opponents at the stake. Jesus said what will happen to those people when they stand before him, he'll say "I never knew you". The word wittness is a legal term and does not include something you read in a book or heard from someone else. Most people claiming to be followers of god show by their lives that they are not. "By their fruit you will know them".

[majordinkydau]

I'm agnostic to the belef in God, and although i can not say that there might not be a force out there capable of controlling every kind energy, I am very skeptical as to whether it exists or not.

My story is such that i have lost faith in religion, for my long research of it proved only to show me how it gets abused into controlling people, how major wars are all due to it, and how one man can gain power over many that believe in him using it. However that does not make me not beleive in God, per say, I've done research on the most odd sites, news paper articles and books about the ability to control energy. If there is indeed an organism out there that can do such a thing, it would have tha ability to control everything, everywhere. I can not recall where I have read about this, but there is a scientist that proved the possibility of a point out in the universe where all energy collides. (thus he got a ring from the pope telling him that he might have just proven the possibility of gods existance)

 

just my opinion though....

 

Major wars are all because of power and greed, not religion, atiests kill each other just as quickly as priests. I was involved in the largest march on the capitol in Sacramento Cal. back in 1969. We were peaceful and so ronald Reagun did not even come out and see us. In Berkley, later that year we threw rocks and got attention. "I love the smell of tear gas in the morning, it smells like anarchy." If I don't know how to live in peace with my brother, how can I expect enemies to live together?

"If you can live with family, you can live with anyone. If you can't live with family, who can you live with? Douglas Coulter aka Major Dinky Dau

[majordinkydau]

Without a spiritual side man would be just like animals. There would be no requirement for mercy or love. Without a spirit we may as well "eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die". Animals have no cumpulsion to help those weaker but instead use them as food. Dr.Mengler applied this kind of science. If I had no spirit I would live to satisfy myself without regard for who I hurt in the process.